Yuriorkis Gamboa vs. Celestino Caballero possible in September

[Dit365]

Caballero doesn't get overwhelmed by speed or power. Yuri does have both, but Caballero will stand there and fire back, and Yuri's the guy who has been dropped by scrubs who did that.

It takes more than just physical tools to beat Celestino.



Eh, no. Juanma doesn't deserve that, a Fight with a unified Champ? Get out. The two guys who need to man-up and find their "pantalones" as Pelenchin said are Vasquez and Marquez, and Vasquez moreso than Marquez.

what your opinion of bernard Dunne ? i'm just interested in knowing it .

i was actually to specking to Brian Peters Dunne's promoter a few weeks back and he kept saying vasquez was the one they wanted and that he felt the marquez fights took a huge amount of out of him and he could be ripe for the picking .

vasquez would also be the biggest pay day for dunne by a country mile . granted dunne would probably need to establish himself in america again and get a few defenses .

but an irish man and a mexican in vegas for a unification it would sell !

 

[Sinister]

you guys seem to be knocking gamboa too much ya he is flawed but this guy was one of the best recent Amateurs in boxing and Olympic medalist.

Also remember this they share a common opponent.

JOSE ROJAS who knocked Caballero out in 3 rounds, and Yuri beat the snot outta him just recently for the vacant title.

but you can also make the argument that Rojas was old when gamboa fought him and Caballero was too green when he got knocked out by Rojas in 03.

Celestino wasn't good until he learned how to Fight and came into his own. And being a World Rated Amateur means shit. Amateur Boxing isn't even the same sport anymore. Antonio Izquirdo was a very highly-touted Cuban Amateur, so was Yanqui Diaz, and plenty others who eventually fizzled. Gamboa's problem is that he shows no aptitude for improving his game, if he needs to get dropped a couple more times to convince you I don't know what to tell you. Joan Guzman had exactly the same style that Gamboa does, only he's not touched the canvas to this day on account of being silly with his defense.

But they get extra protection from the high shorts and the protector

Eh, not really. Those "protectors" don't do a whole lot against someone worth talking about.

 

[TEXASMOJO]

This fight is almost a joke. I hear of people telling gamboas manager to not put him in easy fights. To just skip all and go to the top. Caballero will school him.

 

[mschatz]

Celestino wasn't good until he learned how to Fight and came into his own. And being a World Rated Amateur means shit.

And yet, the vast, VAST majority of good pros come from the amateur ranks. Usually, from an extensive amateur career.

Amateur Boxing isn't even the same sport anymore.

Come on. Yes, the scoring is different, and amateurs need to make some stylistic adjustments when they get to the pros, but it is absolutely the same sport.

Gamboa's problem is that he shows no aptitude for improving his game, if he needs to get dropped a couple more times to convince you I don't know what to tell you. Joan Guzman had exactly the same style that Gamboa does, only he's not touched the canvas to this day on account of being silly with his defense.

Gamboa may end up fizzling, but I think people are deciding that he will way too early. He has never been hurt, and his knockdowns have been flash knockdowns, usually when he was off-balance, "playing" with his opponents. We have no idea if he will do that when faced with someone who can actually have a chance at beating him. He still may, but we dont KNOW.

 

[JMyersDTN]

Quote: Gamboa may end up fizzling, but I think people are deciding that he will way too early. He has never been hurt, and his knockdowns have been flash knockdowns, usually when he was off-balance, "playing" with his opponents. We have no idea if he will do that when faced with someone who can actually have a chance at beating him. He still may, but we dont KNOW.

I agree with you that we are probably passing judgement on Gamboa way too early in his career. That's how it seems to be a lot in sports in that a person's potential is judged on the basis of very few trials. I'm anxious to see what Gamboa could do against somebody like Caballero.

 

[Sinister]

And yet, the vast, VAST majority of good pros come from the amateur ranks. Usually, from an extensive amateur career.

Come on. Yes, the scoring is different, and amateurs need to make some stylistic adjustments when they get to the pros, but it is absolutely the same sport.


Gamboa may end up fizzling, but I think people are deciding that he will way too early. He has never been hurt, and his knockdowns have been flash knockdowns, usually when he was off-balance, "playing" with his opponents. We have no idea if he will do that when faced with someone who can actually have a chance at beating him. He still may, but we dont KNOW.

Um, the vast majority of Pros period come from the Amateur Ranks and extensive Amateur backgrounds. That you're adding "good" before that detail is of your own invention. There have been just as many ratshit Pros with stellar Amateur backgrouns as there are good Pros with stellar backgrounds, because most Pros come from the Amateurs generally. That's like saying most Pro Basketball Players played ball in college or High School and attempting to use that as a qualifier that the good ones played college ball, and well. Unfortunately, so did nearly all of the bad ones.

That guy that just got tooled last night on FNF was a 3 time NY Golden Glove Champ. And the NY GG's ain't no joke. Unfortunately Darling Jimenez and Paul Malignaggi also did very well there, but not so much on the higher level of the Pro Ranks.

I also disagree that Amateurs and Pros are ABSOLUTELY the same sport. And you're talking to a guy who sat through most of the Olympics. That shit does very little to prepare someone for the Pro Ranks unless they already have a Pro Style, in which case they typically lost on points because they're not playing patty-cake enough. Now with the more recent departures from the computer scoring system, and the return of 3 minute rounds, it's getting back closer, but for a good while there Amateur Boxing was on the World level a reasonable facsimile of Professional Boxing, and that's being generous.

Now in-terms of Gamboa, how many times does a guy have to show people the EXACT same flaws fight-to-fight for them to get it? I've seen him dropped 5 times now with a right hand, by guys who had no business dropping him. Sure he wasn't very hurt on any occasion, sure he got up and fought relatively well, but it shows that if his man isn't cooperative, is defiant, and times him, he's going to run into problems. He's had hundreds of Fights, he's what, 28 now? There's no reason this shit should have persisted this far.

I like Gamboa, he's exciting, he's fast, strong, and he's also defiant himself. But the actual level of his performances is continually glossed over because of his Amateur background, or because of his dazzling speed/style. Let's put it like this, if that were me in there, you'd all be pointing out every one of those flaws good reasons I'd be absolutely wasted by a guy of Caballero's caliber. And you'd be right.

 

[mschatz]

Liu - you're argument is that

And being a World Rated Amateur means shit.

Let me explain why that is false.

Management & Promotion
A fighter who has excelled at the national and international level of amateur boxing is managed and treated very differently for his first fights than someone without that pedigree. He is managed carefully, placed in fights with guys that are able to challenge him, but still make him look good. He is the "house fighter" for the entirety of his early career, as he is built into someone that money can be made off of. There is no doubt that fighters with an impressive amateur record are better managed as a whole than a guy without one.

Intangibles
A fighter with 50, 100, 200 amateur fights has ring experience, and FIGHT experience that someone lacking the pedigree does not. He knows how to make weight, he is used to fighting in front of a crowd, and he is used to fighting with the smaller gloves than what he uses in sparring.

Skills
Even with the argument that the styles of amateur boxing and pro boxing are different, they are more than close enough that 50-100 amateur fights will help prepare a fighter for the pro ranks. The amateur system will always remain THE best training ground for a guy who wants to compete in professional boxing. People make the knock that amateur boxing is all about pitty-pat punching, and light, scoring blows. They often use the statistic that there are a lot more knockouts in pro boxing than in amateur boxing. While that may be true, you also have to remember that amateur boxing has only 3-4 rounds to get your work in. If you compare knockouts in pro boxing coming within the first 3-4 rounds, the numbers would become a lot closer. (Obviously, pro's will still have a much higher KO % even in those first few rounds).

The bottom line is that being a world-rated amateur absolutely means a bit more than "shit." Sucess is not guaranteed for anyone trying to make a name for themself in pro boxing, but your chances are much higher if you have had a sucessful amateur career. I dont know how you could argue otherwise.

 

[Sinister]

I don't need to argue it homie, specifically in the case of Cubans there have been more drastic failures as Amateurs-turned-Pro than their have been successes. For every Yuri Gamboa, there's an Izquierdo, Hurtado (mildly successful but not able to sustain on the Elite level), Diaz, and many many others. And that's also not limited to Cuba nowadays, there's also the Andy Lee's of the World. In fact ever since Cuba closed up shop and ONLY participated in Amateurs with no Professional avenues, their success as Professionals has declined, not inclined. The days of Luis Rodriguez, Kid Gavilan, Benny Paret, Kid Chocolate all existing near each other are gone. So far has any high-touted Cuban Amateur even held a candle to Casamayor? Ironic also that you bring up weight, when Solis, Diaz, Izquierdo, all have trouble making reasonable weights and word is Gamboa's beginning to as well. These guys know how to make weight? What the Cubans know is living at near starvation, a lot of times when they come State-side it gets drastically more difficult.

I'm not arguing that being an Olympic medalist doesn't give a guy grooming in the Sport, what I'm saying is it's in no way shape or form an indicator of tentative greatness any longer. Whereas some 15-20 years ago it was almost assured that whomever was a great Amateur would be a great Pro, it's been a while since we've actually seen it pan-out that way. Typically the middle-road Amateurs who turn Pro earlier do better as Pros nowadays.

Marketing notwithstanding. Yuri might not be great, and may never learn to defend a right-hand, but he does drive a Lambo.

 

[mschatz]

Your argument was that "being an amateur champion doesnt mean shit." Your above post just makes the point that not all amateur champions become highly successful in the pros. If that's what you mean originally, then ok, I can agree with that.

 

[Sinister]

Martin, all this time and you take my crass language as being literal?

Seriously dude. lol

When I say "doesn't mean shit", I mean in the case of Yuri it got him what he has, and where he is, but it isn't going to save him from the Pelenchin's of the World. And you know as well as I do there's many Amateur legends who go into the Pros and just get hurt. Grooming is great, but aptitude and eventual skill just aren't weeded-out by the Amateur system so much nowadays. I wish they were, but there's so much conformity. Watch, Diego will be another example. He's on the slow side, and is a bull-dozer, I bet he does relatively crappy in the Amateurs or doesn't look like himself. Then when he gets a Pro Fight and the goal is "hurt that guy"...he'll be juuuuust fine. Rodge does well in the Amateurs because he's like Diego after a couple hits of crystal meth.

 

[Dit365]

Liu what you think of dunne ?

 

[DynamoGT]

Liu what you think of dunne ?

I know you are not asking me but Dunne is ok, he is a durable irish lad with heart very tough but in terms of longevity a good boxer would pick him apart.

Didnt he used to train at wild card gym with freddie roach? I remember seeing him go toe to toe with manny pacquiao in some sparring videos when pac was at 126.

 

[Dit365]

I know you are not asking me but Dunne is ok, he is a durable irish lad with heart very tough but in terms of longevity a good boxer would pick him apart.

Didnt he used to train at wild card gym with freddie roach? I remember seeing him go toe to toe with manny pacquiao in some sparring videos when pac was at 126.

yeah when he went pro they sent him to Freddie he had his first 15 fights with freddie .

did you see the Cordoba fight Dynamo ?

it was incredible but he never fights that way , he's a boxer a slick fighter , not a brawler at all . I couldn't believe what i was seeing .

my biggest concern about dunne was not being picked apart , but that his chin wouldn't hold up to the world level .

 

[DynamoGT]

yeah when he went pro they sent him to Freddie he had his first 15 fights with freddie .

did you see the Cordoba fight Dynamo ?

it was incredible but he never fights that way , he's a boxer a slick fighter , not a brawler at all . I couldn't believe what i was seeing .

my biggest concern about dunne was not being picked apart , but that his chin wouldn't hold up to the world level .

The cordoba
and the keiko martinez fight are the only fights I seen of his, I just remember seeing a few videos of him sparring pacquiao and he would go toe to toe so I thought he was a brawler, he traded with cordoba in an all action fight. Thats why I say he has a ton of heart.

Seems Freddie fancies using Irish Sparmates for pacquiao not sure why but pac always spars with at least one irish guy maybe its the luck of the irish rubbin off on him?:icon_lol:

So the pocket rocket McCullough trains Dunne now right? Doesn't Wayne also train librado andrade as well?

 

[mschatz]

Martin, all this time and you take my crass language as being literal?

Seriously dude. lol

When I say "doesn't mean shit", I mean in the case of Yuri it got him what he has, and where he is, but it isn't going to save him from the Pelenchin's of the World. And you know as well as I do there's many Amateur legends who go into the Pros and just get hurt. Grooming is great, but aptitude and eventual skill just aren't weeded-out by the Amateur system so much nowadays. I wish they were, but there's so much conformity. Watch, Diego will be another example. He's on the slow side, and is a bull-dozer, I bet he does relatively crappy in the Amateurs or doesn't look like himself. Then when he gets a Pro Fight and the goal is "hurt that guy"...he'll be juuuuust fine. Rodge does well in the Amateurs because he's like Diego after a couple hits of crystal meth.

It's all good. It's not the crude language, so much as all the knocks on amateur boxing that you hear a lot on internet message boards. It can be a bit insulting to hear something that you work hard at being considered a sport that isnt boxing, something less than, etc.

 

[Dit365]

The cordoba
and the keiko martinez fight are the only fights I seen of his, I just remember seeing a few videos of him sparring pacquiao and he would go toe to toe so I thought he was a brawler, he traded with cordoba in an all action fight. Thats why I say he has a ton of heart.

Seems Freddie fancies using Irish Sparmates for pacquiao not sure why but pac always spars with at least one irish guy maybe its the luck of the irish rubbin off on him?:icon_lol:

So the pocket rocket McCullough trains Dunne now right? Doesn't Wayne also train librado andrade as well?

wayne doesn;t train dunne but they are good friends , i think off hand who his trainer is at the moments it's harry something could be Hawkins .

wayne actually made a post on his website challenging dunne , but brian peters dunne's promoters response was that wayne would need to get some back to back win cause he hasn;t won a fight since 2005 . I

 

[Sinister]

It's all good. It's not the crude language, so much as all the knocks on amateur boxing that you hear a lot on internet message boards. It can be a bit insulting to hear something that you work hard at being considered a sport that isnt boxing, something less than, etc.

I respect your work, always have. But I can't say as I like what Amateur Boxing has become. Hence my own disillusionment with it as I could have gone the Nate Campbell route in Florida. One of these days we can go over it all more thoroughly in the Amateurs thread.

Dit - I don't know enough about Dunne to comment. I'm going to get a hold of some of his Fights and give you a more educated assessment. Promise.

Speaking of Irish guys and Amateurs though, my buddy Rodge (Robert Gorman El Masri) is going to be Fighting in the Scotlands and then in the World Championships in Italy. Keep an eye out over there.

 

[the general]

caballerro is to small

 

[Sinister]

You're hilarious.

 

[Dit365]

I respect your work, always have. But I can't say as I like what Amateur Boxing has become. Hence my own disillusionment with it as I could have gone the Nate Campbell route in Florida. One of these days we can go over it all more thoroughly in the Amateurs thread.

Dit - I don't know enough about Dunne to comment. I'm going to get a hold of some of his Fights and give you a more educated assessment. Promise.

Speaking of Irish guys and Amateurs though, my buddy Rodge (Robert Gorman El Masri) is going to be Fighting in the Scotlands and then in the World Championships in Italy. Keep an eye out over there.

no problem .

i love him cause he is the reason for the rebirth of boxing in ireland ,

he was fighting in america Brian peters took him back to ireland got him a deal on national tv and got ireland first world title since 1999 and the first world title fight in dublin since 1996 .

now we have legit challengers in Mathew macklin at mw , Paul McCloskey at 140 , jamie moore at 154 and dunne at 122 who are all top 10 and working with Brian peters . not to mention andy lee and john duddy who hopefully will be back

but i don't know if his chin will hold up against a vasquez , marquez or caballero . Dunne was actually offered a fight against Caballero in 2008 but they said they weren't ready for the world title shot . i think they made the right choice in Cordova who knowone wanted to fight