[geezerjitsu]

Originally Posted by whiskeyyy

The fact that the people on your list may have believed in this idea does not lend the idea itself any credibility.

My motive was to discredit the comparison you made between believers in Creationism and believers in Santa, which I have done.

[adren@line]

Originally Posted by geezerjitsu

I don't know if you noticed the number of responses throughout this thread containing assessments such as scary, chilling, and the like but it tends to validate my question as to why people react with such fear over the fact that some people believe in Creationism.

Its scary that our educational standards are so low that we hire people to teach biology that are creationists. Its scary because its actually being taught in a science class room as opposed to a religion class.

The idea of creationism itself is comical.

[adren@line]

Originally Posted by geezerjitsu

I don't view this as an appropriate analogy at all. Comparing an essential tenet of the entire history of almost all religions throughout the human epoch with something frivolous and silly isn't useful for anything other than shock value. If we found out, for example, that Thomas Jefferson, Lincoln, FDR, and Jimmy Carter believed in Creationism would we be saying that this is equivalent to learning that they all worshipped Santa and bunnies? Clearly not.

There is a difference.

The only people stupid enough to believe in creationism in any sizeable majority are American Christians. Hell, even the Muslims accept evolution, as do the Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, etc. All have pretty much accepted the validity of evolutionary theory.

But no, a specific group of American Christians apparently know something "the rest of us" do not know and can see "right through" evolution thanks to their intellectual prowess gifted to them by Jesus.

[geezerjitsu]

Originally Posted by Lagrange

Could you stop referring to evolution as a mere "belief system"? That would be a start.

And another thing: what is truly mindbogglingly egotistical about this whole situation is pretending that other pathetic ideas disagreeing with evolution are on an equal footing with evolution. No one is going to take the attitude that the flat-earth theory is on a more or less equal footing as the spherical earth theory. I don't think you understand how central to biology evolution is, and how nonsensical ID, creationism, etc are if you work through their implications in detail.

Personally, I believe in evolution (not that it matters). I just feel that religious people who disagree with this are not necessarily crazy or stupid. Major tenets common to the majority of world religions throughout the human epoch, world views held in common by the majorities of even highly intelligent people until perhaps a few decades ago, are worthy of discussion without insult. We need not be totally dogmatic and absolutist about particularities of our own belief systems. Even as a believer in evolution, first of all I am taking it on faith (belief in the sciences without any evidence I can personally confirm) and second of all I am aware that evolution itself is a limited and imperfect theory which does not adequately explain many phenomena.

[Shoot[]Box]

awesome... no wonder the rest of the world takes the US education climate as though it were one, rambling, unfunny joke...

[geezerjitsu]

Originally Posted by adren@line

There is a difference.

The only people stupid enough to believe in creationism in any sizeable majority or American Christians. Hell, even the Muslims accept evolution, as do the Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, etc. All have pretty much accepted the validity of evolutionary theory.

But no, a specific group of American Christians apparently know something "the rest of us" do not know and can see "right through" evolution thanks to their intellectual prowess gifted to them by Jesus.

I doubt that this has to do with intelligence (IQ) so much as with belief systems, though it is common now to insult Christians, particularly for young people inculcated with popular American culture.

The majority of Christians I know personally believe in evolution. In fact, I don't know any who do not (though of course I have read and do believe these people exist).

[geezerjitsu]

Originally Posted by Shoot[]Box

awesome... no wonder the rest of the world takes the US education climate as though it were one, rambling, unfunny joke...

Are you implying that problems in the US education system are related in any significant way to the prevalence of teaching Creationism? This would be a novel conclusion but probably I am misunderstanding you.

[adren@line]

Originally Posted by geezerjitsu

Personally, I believe in evolution (not that it matters). I just feel that religious people who disagree with this are not necessarily crazy or stupid. Major tenets common to the majority of world religions throughout the human epoch, world views held in common by the majorities of even highly intelligent people until perhaps a few decades ago, are worthy of discussion without insult. We need not be totally dogmatic and absolutist about particularities of our own belief systems. Even as a believer in evolution, first of all I am taking it on faith (belief in the sciences without any evidence I can personally confirm) and second of all I am aware that evolution itself is a limited and imperfect theory which does not adequately explain many phenomena.

Your missing the point here.

There is nothing wrong with discussing beliefs and "exploring alternatives", but not in public schools and these "alternative beliefs" should not be used as a basis for policy since they arent based on anything empirical or objective,

American Christians, on the other hand, make it a point to interfere with policy and are pushing to have their views taught in public schools. This is crossing the line.

People give Christians alot shit largely because of this and their exclusivist attitudes and beliefs.

[geezerjitsu]

Originally Posted by adren@line

Your missing the point here.

There is nothing wrong with discussing beliefs and "exploring alternatives", but not in public schools and these "alternative beliefs" should not be used as a basis for policy since they arent based on anything empirical or objective,

American Christians, on the other hand, make it a point to interfere with policy and are pushing to have their views taught in public schools. This is crossing the line.

People give Christians alot shit largely because of this and their exclusivist attitudes and beliefs.

I disagree that discussing beliefs and exploring alternatives ought to be forbidden in public schools. I also disagree that policy is or ought to be primarily based on the empirical.

Historically, Creationism was not challenged and therefore was taken as fact in school. It is only recently as American has transitioned into a primarily secular country that we are moving away from this. So I believe the push is going in the opposite direction from what you describe - that is, away from religion and away from the teaching of Creationism.

[Lagrange]

Originally Posted by geezerjitsu

Personally, I believe in evolution (not that it matters). I just feel that religious people who disagree with this are not necessarily crazy or stupid. Major tenets common to the majority of world religions throughout the human epoch, world views held in common by the majorities of even highly intelligent people until perhaps a few decades ago, are worthy of discussion without insult. We need not be totally dogmatic and absolutist about particularities of our own belief systems. Even as a believer in evolution, first of all I am taking it on faith (belief in the sciences without any evidence I can personally confirm) and second of all I am aware that evolution itself is a limited and imperfect theory which does not adequately explain many phenomena.

Evolution is the precise opposite of a "limited and imperfect" theory. It explains the strange structure of our and every living organism's bodies and how these organism are interrelated. Furthermore, you can extend evolutionary ideas out of the biological realm to explain geological and cosmic phenomena. Again, evolution is not a "belief system" like creationism is. Creationism is a "belief system", one moreover that is typically believed in by people who don't know what they are talking about, and is not worthy of the kinds of discussion they have tried to force upon the public (ie, via disngenuos court actions and lawsuits.) Scientists have been researching evolutionary phenomena from the cellular level on up, so given the amount of work experts do on this subject every day, I am baffled at your belief that trusting the conclusions of the scientific community is tantamount to "faith." It is the precise opposite of faith!