[IronShogun.]

Roman Gladius, most effect close combat weapon in military history.

[Chris B]

Originally Posted by IronShogun.

Roman Gladius, most effect close combat weapon in military history.

Seriously? I have seen the Gladius mentioned a few times. The Gladius is a great weapon, but it has severe limitations as well. I do not think any "one" hand to hand weapon is ideal for all situations. The gladius for instance would have to be broken down into Mainz, Fulham, and Pompei types and all of them have a limited cutting ability. They are a good thrusting weapon, but so are other later period swords that can cut as well. I would love to be able to claim that the Romans were clearly superior to any other military culture as they were my ancestors, but that would be premature. Remember that the Gladius's effectiveness was for close formation combat when paired with a Scutum for thrusting. Even the Romans transitioned to the Spatha in the later Empire.

I am just curious how many people here actually own the weapons and have had training with what they are claiming as "best". Not being rude, just genuinely interested because some of you might be surprised with what you find. I have always loved military history and actually collect higher end weapons and armour. I have actually performed tameshigiri with an Albion "Allectus" gladius that I own and was pleased with its ability, but it did not compare to the cutting ability of the Bugei Crane wakizashi I own, much less the Crane Katana, the Albion Knight or the Albion Vinland. Even the Cold Steel Gurka Kukhri cut better than the gladius. Results were somewhat different than expectations.

I own spears, swords, axes, maces, modern weaponry, lances, etc. and I do not think any ONE would be ideal in all situations. If I had to pick only one for a CQB weapon, I would personally pick my Bugei wakizashi (which is what you were thinking Westside) or my Kukhri. It cuts well, has great balance and is extremely responsive. It is also small enough to still be in effective weapon indoors and in close quarters. Like I said earlier though, put me against someone with a Yari, spear, or other polearm in open space, and I might think differently. They all had there time and place.

[IronShogun.]

Seriously? I have seen the Gladius mentioned a few times. The Gladius is a great weapon, but it has severe limitations as well. I do not think any "one" hand to hand weapon is ideal for all situations. The gladius for instance would have to be broken down into Mainz, Fulham, and Pompei types and all of them have a limited cutting ability. They are a good thrusting weapon, but so are other later period swords that can cut as well. I would love to be able to claim that the Romans were clearly superior to any other military culture as they were my ancestors, but that would be premature. Remember that the Gladius's effectiveness was for close formation combat when paired with a Scutum for thrusting. Even the Romans transitioned to the Spatha in the later Empire.

I am just curious how many people here actually own the weapons and have had training with what they are claiming as "best". Not being rude, just genuinely interested because some of you might be surprised with what you find. I have always loved military history and actually collect higher end weapons and armour. I have actually performed tameshigiri with an Albion "Allectus" gladius that I own and was pleased with its ability, but it did not compare to the cutting ability of the Bugei Crane wakizashi I own, much less the Crane Katana, the Albion Knight or the Albion Vinland. Even the Cold Steel Gurka Kukhri cut better than the gladius. Results were somewhat different than expectations.

I own spears, swords, axes, maces, modern weaponry, lances, etc. and I do not think any ONE would be ideal in all situations. If I had to pick only one for a CQB weapon, I would personally pick my Bugei wakizashi (which is what you were thinking Westside) or my Kukhri. It cuts well, has great balance and is extremely responsive. It is also small enough to still be in effective weapon indoors and in close quarters. Like I said earlier though, put me against someone with a Yari, spear, or other polearm in open space, and I might think differently. They all had there time and place.

Well i said specifically close combat weapon...Spada was a bit longer and was apparently used by cavalry officers. You have to understand the average legionnaire was not a very big person but the thickness of the sword he used for stabbing caused horrible damage. Amazing weapon for formation or close combat. Gladius FTW. I own a replica gladius...but i am more of a gun and MMA enthusiast.

[Chris B]

Originally Posted by IronShogun.

Well i said specifically close combat weapon...Spada was a bit longer and was apparently used by cavalry officers. You have to understand the average legionnaire was not a very big person but the thickness of the sword he used for stabbing caused horrible damage. Amazing weapon for formation or close combat. Gladius FTW. I own a replica gladius...but i am more of a gun and MMA enthusiast.

It is actually a misconception that Legionnaires were not very big. I would recommend reading Armamentarium which shows Romans preferred to recruit men of 6' tall. QUOTE "We find the ancients very fond of procuring the tallest men they could for the service, since the standard for the cavalry of the wings and for the infantry of the first legionary cohorts was fixed at six feet, or at least five feet ten inches."

If the dang pictures would load that are included in my first post, I included the pics of a full Roman kit. I have spent considerable time researching this topic in acquiring a full reenacting quality "kit" of a 1st century Legionnaire. I have also made Scutum, subarmalis and other pieces of the "kit". I only make the point that the sword was designed for close quarters, but IN formation and its effectiveness diminishes for more skirmish type warfare. Also, as an FYI, the Roman legions DID transition to the Spatha for foot soldiers as well.

I agree with you that it was a useful weapon for the time. I was just curious as to your reasoning as most people have NO experience with them anymore and most people that own a replica buy cheap wall hangers and not high quality swords.

[IronShogun.]

Originally Posted by Chris B

It is actually a misconception that Legionnaires were not very big. I would recommend reading Armamentarium which shows Romans preferred to recruit men of 6' tall. QUOTE "We find the ancients very fond of procuring the tallest men they could for the service, since the standard for the cavalry of the wings and for the infantry of the first legionary cohorts was fixed at six feet, or at least five feet ten inches."

If the dang pictures would load that are included in my first post, I included the pics of a full Roman kit. I have spent considerable time researching this topic in acquiring a full reenacting quality "kit" of a 1st century Legionnaire. I have also made Scutum, subarmalis and other pieces of the "kit". I only make the point that the sword was designed for close quarters, but IN formation and its effectiveness diminishes for more skirmish type warfare. Also, as an FYI, the Roman legions DID transition to the Spatha for foot soldiers as well.

I agree with you that it was a useful weapon for the time. I was just curious as to your reasoning as most people have NO experience with them anymore and most people that own a replica buy cheap wall hangers and not high quality swords.

You need to understand that during republican times legionaries/full roman citizen or even latin citizens were recruited en mass from cities and the country side, there could be no selection on heights of soldiers in times of need. Like for instance after the Roman disastrous defeat at Cannae to Hannibal. Romans were able to raise an alarming number of legions even after all their legions had been destroyed. I seriously doubt if there was a selection of the height of roman soldiers in that period. I am well aware, that the Roman army later switched to the Spatha, but that was after the second AD. I agree that there a few ppl who know how to properly use this weapon but at the same time i chose it as an amazing close combat weapin since the damage that it can cause in the hands of a "new" soldier is amazing, since it doesnt take very much skill to stab from behind a shield. Im not saying the Roman army was full of new recruits but rather that it wasn't that hard to train a soldier to stab with such an effective stabbing weapon. I also appreciate the interesting debate with you. My gladdius is sharp but i would never use it for combat since it is a replica made in Pakistan. Its just a decorative peace. I still believe that this weapon is an amazing close combat weapon due to its multiple strengths at being good for stabbing and slashing, and also due to its relatively short length. The best close combat weapon IMO and if i could get my hands on a properly made one and needed to chose between a machete, smatchet or any other of the bladed weapons listed in this thread i would definitely chose the gladdius.

[Chris B]

Let me start by stating that I am not being rude, condescending, or trying to argue for argument's sake, but history books are only so accurate and you can only gain so much information from reading. I can appreciate that your a history major, but education is only a foundation for further learning. I am a CPA and have an MBA for example, but a lot of what I learned in school just isn't practical or used in the "real world". Academia is usually in an isolated bubble.

With that said, if your really interested in the Roman Military, join Roman Army Talk. You have extremely knowledgeable reenactors, museum currators, and the likes discussing this stuff daily. It is one thing to postulate as to how these weapons were used and it is something completely different to recreate it. When using the tools of the day, certain things become readily apparent as to effectiveness and tactics that just do not make any sense.

The gladius DID take a lot of training. The Roman's were strong strategically because of their Military Unit tactics which meant the Legionnairres had to be properly trained and fight as a unit. New recruits spent hours each day in front of a post covered in rope practicing strikes and movement with a heavier version of their gladius to work techinique and drills. They had to learn commands and how to work with the men next to them. Unless your using the Gladius paired with a Scutum as in my picture, the Gladius is not an effective sword for blocking or parrying another sword. It was meant to be used with a shield.

If your absolutely SURE your sword isn't a wall hanger, takes some tatami and try thrusting on target and using it to cut. You might be suprised how much "skill" is really required. And I say, make sure because I wouldn't want it to break and hurt you. What type of Gladius is it? Mainz, Fulham, or Pompei.

Since we are talking Republic, they would have been using the Fulham or the Mainz which still had wasting and was designed for the cut as well as a thrust. Also remember that the Gladius was not invented by Rome. The Spaniards used it against them before they were conquered and the Roman Army adopted it.

[IronShogun.]

My sword is a pakistani made replica gladius, im not stabbing anything with that, but the reason why i chose it as an ideal close combat weapon was particularly because it was primarily a stabbing weapon. Your choice, i am assuming was more of a slashing weapon although it could be used for stabbing. I think just due to the width of the gladius it would cause more damage then wakizashi in a stab. In close combat stabs are faster then slashes IMO. Interesting debate though, but this all opinion based and i never thought of you as coming across as rude, i always appreciate someone who voices their "intelligent" opinions.

[IronShogun.]

Oh and thanks for that site, the stuff in there is too cool.

[Chris B]

No problem for the site.

Yes, the Gladius in the picture I posted is a Mainz gladius. You can see the wasting in it which allowed it to cut as well. I am assuming yours is a Pompei type. Pompei's were the latest type of gladius which have parallel sides and a more triangular point to them. I think I am going to buy one of those too from Albion Swords before they sell them all. Minor difference, but I do like the different styles of blade too. Although, Albion has their three new models of Spatha coming in the summer which might get into my budget before another gladius. At $650 a pop for a Roman and $1,000 and up for other cultures' swords, I can only budget for so many Roman Swords.

[D-Train]

I choose a paper clip. That's right fellas, a paper clip. Easily concealable, readily accessible. I'll be like that dude from Daredevil: throwing 'em in people's throats and what not, poking fools in the eye. That's how roll.