[BigBubba]

Good points from Gregster.
Personally, I've found that most Pawn shops actually charge MSRP or higher on most guns. Sad but true.
If you see a gun at a pawn shop that you like, check everything on Gregsters list, go home and check out reviews and MSRP online, then call local shops and check prices/inventory. Most independent gun shops only charge $30 to $70 over their cost (usually well below MSRP). If you can't find it locally check http://www.gunbroker.com and be sure to figure in both shipping and local FFL fees. Even then it's probably cheaper to buy new than used at a pawn shop.

Just my $.02

[ssssmashing]

Originally Posted by Gregster

It could be a good or bad, depending on how well you approach it. A pawn shop can be a great place to buy all kinds of stuff, including firearms.

People buy guns all the time, thinking that they *must* have one in theory, only to find out in practice that they don't. Later on, if this person is confronted with a sudden, unanticipated need to come up with a wad of cash in a hurry and understands that running all over town pressing it against the skull of every immigrant manning a Mini-Mart or liquor store cash register sucks from a "risk vs. reward" standpoint, they may pawn it.

Buying a used firearm is like buying a used car (or pretty much any used or pre-owned "fill-in-the-blank"). You can get a perfectly good firearm that's as good as new, if not to say in perfect "cherry" condition, without getting your pants pulled down over the price if you know not only how to not only kick the tires but critically analyze what you're observing.

Before you even start seriously looking, it helps to have an idea of what you want and how much you can safely afford to spend. If you want to punch holes in empty beer cans all day for fun and relaxation for little cost, get a .22; for self-defense, something between a 9mm and a .45 ACP should do, with .357 Magnum being the high edge of the proverbial envelope. A Smith & Wesson Model 66 .44 Magnum looks impressive, is fun in small doses, and may actually cause your penis to increase in size as much as an inch or so but has limited applications outside of certain types on hunting and re-enacting DeNiro's famous "You talkin' to me?" scene from Taxi Driver. But this is stuff that can start a whole new thread, so let's leave that here for now.

Once you know what you want, and how much you can spend without killing yourself, head down to the pawn shop, preferably with 3 or 4 likely candidates in mind and ask to inspect them. Pay particular attention to the following:

1) THE BORE: the inside of the bore, a.k.a. the "barrel," should ideally be free of corrosion, rust, or pitting as these are tell-tale signs that the weapon you're looking at was either previously owned by someone too lazy or too ignorant to take proper care of it, or was not manufactured as well as it could have and thus has flaws such as improper (or non-existent) chroming of the barrel. The accuracy, reliability, and serviceable life of a firearm is directly affected by the condition of the barrel.

When doing this, lock the upper receiver (a.k.a. the "slide") to the rear if it's an automatic, or swing the cylinder to the 90-degree position outside the gun if it's a revolver (usually accomplished by pushing a thumb switch near the grip forward and nudging the cylinder out to the left), and hold the weapon with the butt-end towards a light source, making sure you get some light in there. If you see something questionable inside the barrel, see if you can't run a small wad of lint-free cloth in there to make sure it's not dust or a blast of canned air like the kind used to clean electronics and PC keyboards if there's some handy. DO NOT blow into it; your breath has moisture in it.

Also look for carbon fouling, which is the black, resin-like crap produced and left behind by burning gunpowder; check not just the barrel, but the rear end of the chamber where the round is seated. I'd be reluctant to accept any gun fouled in such a way as it may conceal other flaws like those I've mentioned, while also suggesting that the previous owner didn't keep it properly cleaned, oiled, and maintained (which should lead you to wonder what the hell else he ignored).

If the gun otherwise checks out, getting all the old, baked-on residue can be a real bitch to get off; I once spent three separate cleanings with everything from bore brushes to dental picks getting caked-on/burnt residue out of and genuine old-school Colt 1911 .45 belonging to an uncle of mine that was briefly entrusted to my care after his death by my aunt while my dad mulled over the possibility of buying it from her.

2) IF IT'S A REVOLVER you should check the individual chambers within the cylinder where bullets sit when the weapon is loaded for the same evidence of distress caused by abuse and piss-poor maintenance you did for the barrel.

The cylinder should swing outside of the revolver cleanly and smoothly, requiring no more a slight nudge to unseat; it should just as easily swing back into place inside the frame of the gun and snap into position where it needs to be when firing.

Most modern/contemporary revolvers have a rod sticking out from the front of the cylinder which typically is seated inside a groove in the frame and/or barrel. The rod acts as a kind of plunger which when pressed rearward causes a kinda star-shaped thingamajig nestled in the rear of the cylinder to move outward. The purpose of this contrivance is to allow the shooter to quickly shove spent brass out of the cylinder to facilitate rapid reloading, a rather important feature if one day-- heaven forfend-- you find yourself staking your life on it in a shootout that takes more than six shots to resolve.

Hence, it should move smoothly back when depressed and spring forward back into place once you stop pressing on it. If it doesn't, and/or the cylinder rod looks dinged-up and and maybe a wee bit warped, this often indicates that the previous owner liked to finish reloading using the Mickey Spillane/Action Hero method of flicking it had to the right and slamming the cylinder back into place. This expedites the rate at which the pistol wears out; I'd recommend you pass on it

CHECK THE BLUING: Unless the gun has a stainless steel or plated finish, one of the final steps in manufacturing it involves applying bluing to the outside; "bluing" describes the substance used, as well ad the procedure of applying it. Its purpose it to ward off or minimize the formation of rust, oxidation, or corrosion of the ****l. If you notice, while looking the weapon over, that it has little dings and flecks of this coating removed, exposing the underlying ****l (which tends to be flat ****llic, or brassy, in color) to the elements. This often is yet another clue that suggests abuse or rough handling by the former owner. If you notice the bluing has rubbed off in parts where two surfaces rub together, this probably means it saw a lot of use. Using a wire brush on blued surfaces while cleaning will also damage it in that manner.

I think a simple touching-up process using cheap materials found in stores selling guns can fix that, but be sure to consider what it may have endured to get that way.


REVOLVERS check the frame and cylinder for outward signs of stress or tiny fissures. These often indicate the last guy who had it made it a habit to shooting "hot" loads like high-power or "+P" ammo much too frequently, or which the weapon was not intended to handle. Nothing ruins a trip to the range like having a gun come apart in your hands.

FUNCTIONS CHECK The hammer should drop if the trigger is pulled, and not drop when the safety in engaged (safeties tend to be found only on autos). Many newer autos have a "hammer drop" safety which disengages the sear so as to prevent the hammer from hitting the firing pin and prevent the weapon being shot until it's re-engaged.

Gotta go...I'm rambling. If I think of anything else, I'll add to this.

This is Sticky worthy!

[Jubacat]

Originally Posted by Gregster

It could be a good or bad, depending on how well you approach it. A pawn shop can be a great place to buy all kinds of stuff, including firearms.

People buy guns all the time, thinking that they *must* have one in theory, only to find out in practice that they don't. Later on, if this person is confronted with a sudden, unanticipated need to come up with a wad of cash in a hurry and understands that running all over town pressing it against the skull of every immigrant manning a Mini-Mart or liquor store cash register sucks from a "risk vs. reward" standpoint, they may pawn it.

Buying a used firearm is like buying a used car (or pretty much any used or pre-owned "fill-in-the-blank"). You can get a perfectly good firearm that's as good as new, if not to say in perfect "cherry" condition, without getting your pants pulled down over the price if you know not only how to not only kick the tires but critically analyze what you're observing.

Before you even start seriously looking, it helps to have an idea of what you want and how much you can safely afford to spend. If you want to punch holes in empty beer cans all day for fun and relaxation for little cost, get a .22; for self-defense, something between a 9mm and a .45 ACP should do, with .357 Magnum being the high edge of the proverbial envelope. A Smith & Wesson Model 66 .44 Magnum looks impressive, is fun in small doses, and may actually cause your penis to increase in size as much as an inch or so but has limited applications outside of certain types on hunting and re-enacting DeNiro's famous "You talkin' to me?" scene from Taxi Driver. But this is stuff that can start a whole new thread, so let's leave that here for now.

Once you know what you want, and how much you can spend without killing yourself, head down to the pawn shop, preferably with 3 or 4 likely candidates in mind and ask to inspect them. Pay particular attention to the following:

1) THE BORE: the inside of the bore, a.k.a. the "barrel," should ideally be free of corrosion, rust, or pitting as these are tell-tale signs that the weapon you're looking at was either previously owned by someone too lazy or too ignorant to take proper care of it, or was not manufactured as well as it could have and thus has flaws such as improper (or non-existent) chroming of the barrel. The accuracy, reliability, and serviceable life of a firearm is directly affected by the condition of the barrel.

When doing this, lock the upper receiver (a.k.a. the "slide") to the rear if it's an automatic, or swing the cylinder to the 90-degree position outside the gun if it's a revolver (usually accomplished by pushing a thumb switch near the grip forward and nudging the cylinder out to the left), and hold the weapon with the butt-end towards a light source, making sure you get some light in there. If you see something questionable inside the barrel, see if you can't run a small wad of lint-free cloth in there to make sure it's not dust or a blast of canned air like the kind used to clean electronics and PC keyboards if there's some handy. DO NOT blow into it; your breath has moisture in it.

Also look for carbon fouling, which is the black, resin-like crap produced and left behind by burning gunpowder; check not just the barrel, but the rear end of the chamber where the round is seated. I'd be reluctant to accept any gun fouled in such a way as it may conceal other flaws like those I've mentioned, while also suggesting that the previous owner didn't keep it properly cleaned, oiled, and maintained (which should lead you to wonder what the hell else he ignored).

If the gun otherwise checks out, getting all the old, baked-on residue can be a real bitch to get off; I once spent three separate cleanings with everything from bore brushes to dental picks getting caked-on/burnt residue out of and genuine old-school Colt 1911 .45 belonging to an uncle of mine that was briefly entrusted to my care after his death by my aunt while my dad mulled over the possibility of buying it from her.

2) IF IT'S A REVOLVER you should check the individual chambers within the cylinder where bullets sit when the weapon is loaded for the same evidence of distress caused by abuse and piss-poor maintenance you did for the barrel.

The cylinder should swing outside of the revolver cleanly and smoothly, requiring no more a slight nudge to unseat; it should just as easily swing back into place inside the frame of the gun and snap into position where it needs to be when firing.

Most modern/contemporary revolvers have a rod sticking out from the front of the cylinder which typically is seated inside a groove in the frame and/or barrel. The rod acts as a kind of plunger which when pressed rearward causes a kinda star-shaped thingamajig nestled in the rear of the cylinder to move outward. The purpose of this contrivance is to allow the shooter to quickly shove spent brass out of the cylinder to facilitate rapid reloading, a rather important feature if one day-- heaven forfend-- you find yourself staking your life on it in a shootout that takes more than six shots to resolve.

Hence, it should move smoothly back when depressed and spring forward back into place once you stop pressing on it. If it doesn't, and/or the cylinder rod looks dinged-up and and maybe a wee bit warped, this often indicates that the previous owner liked to finish reloading using the Mickey Spillane/Action Hero method of flicking it had to the right and slamming the cylinder back into place. This expedites the rate at which the pistol wears out; I'd recommend you pass on it

CHECK THE BLUING: Unless the gun has a stainless steel or plated finish, one of the final steps in manufacturing it involves applying bluing to the outside; "bluing" describes the substance used, as well ad the procedure of applying it. Its purpose it to ward off or minimize the formation of rust, oxidation, or corrosion of the ****l. If you notice, while looking the weapon over, that it has little dings and flecks of this coating removed, exposing the underlying ****l (which tends to be flat ****llic, or brassy, in color) to the elements. This often is yet another clue that suggests abuse or rough handling by the former owner. If you notice the bluing has rubbed off in parts where two surfaces rub together, this probably means it saw a lot of use. Using a wire brush on blued surfaces while cleaning will also damage it in that manner.

I think a simple touching-up process using cheap materials found in stores selling guns can fix that, but be sure to consider what it may have endured to get that way.


REVOLVERS check the frame and cylinder for outward signs of stress or tiny fissures. These often indicate the last guy who had it made it a habit to shooting "hot" loads like high-power or "+P" ammo much too frequently, or which the weapon was not intended to handle. Nothing ruins a trip to the range like having a gun come apart in your hands.

FUNCTIONS CHECK The hammer should drop if the trigger is pulled, and not drop when the safety in engaged (safeties tend to be found only on autos). Many newer autos have a "hammer drop" safety which disengages the sear so as to prevent the hammer from hitting the firing pin and prevent the weapon being shot until it's re-engaged.

Gotta go...I'm rambling. If I think of anything else, I'll add to this.

Gregster, wow.

I wouldn't call this rambling.

You summed it all up very well.

[Victa]

DAMN! lol Very Nice Greg

[Gregster]

Thanks for all the props, fellas.

A couple things I meant to add, but did not:

GUN SHOWS: bought my last rifle at one, a CETME Modelo C in generally excellent condition for $400, a sweetheart deal any way you slice it. Where it mostly counts (lower receiver, trigger housing, upper receiver, bolt) the weapon appears to have be expertly reconditioned if not replaced outright. This may have had something to do those parts having to much wear, or possibly because it allowed the vendor to exploit some loophole regarding the importation of certain weapons demonized in th in the now-defunct (YAY!!) Assault Weapons Ban which got weaseled into the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, a bit of legislation that proved about as well as anything ever could that a significant percentage of our elected officeholders in Congress are so dedicated, so indefatigable when it comes to doing "the peoples' business" that they will not allow themselves to be deterred from voting on a piece of legislation simply because they're are utterly and profoundly fucking clueless about what is being legislated.

But I'm not here to editorialize...

Post-Columbine bad-mouthing aside, gun shows (at least every one I ever dropped in on, of which there have been many) can be counted on to provide a prospective gun-buyer plenty of opportunities to get good deals on guns (see my above example) to ammo to gear. It still helps to maintain a reasonable/logical amount of wariness towards their offerings, especially the used stuff, but most I find seem to be on the level.

I you have the chance to avail yourself of this option, it helps to strategically plan your purchases. The shows I've been to always run for two days-- Saturday and Sunday-- and are attended by any number of licensed, professional dealers who make their money selling guns. Many of these guys will spend a relatively handsome sum to stake out a table and then drive hundreds of miles, maybe from out of state, to hawk their wares. It goes without saying that they are serious about doing business.

I find the best thing to do is show up on Day #1, and spend enough time to leisurely stroll the length and breadth of the show while be being certain to note what weapons are being sold for how much. Go home, mull your options, and return on Day #2.

Doing this sort of thing helps prevent impulse buying. It also can sweeten a potential deal if you play it right.

When it gets within maybe three hours or so of the time when the venue who leased out out the floor space requires the vendors to gather up their stuff and go, your ability to directly influence the transaction improves. A gun dealer who finds himself a couple hours shy of closing time will often begin to adopt an attitude towards closing a sale similar to the attitude a drunk guy in a bar has towards getting laid when someone yells "LAST CALL!". You may not be able to haggle them down on their spanking-new stuff, but you have better odds with used ones.

EDIT: One thing about gun shows is that they tend to be asshole magnets. Thus, be prepared to find yourself mingling amongst any number of delusional military wanna-bes, self-described Rambos still living in their mothers' basement, and dudes whose fascination with Nazi memorabilia and all things Third Reich sails well beyond the threshold of scholarly interest or a guys with a healthy amateur historian hobby. And don't even get me started on the clueless dipshits who insist of sidling up next to you as you eye a gun and take it upon themselves to give you the benefit of the full length and breadth of their non-existent expertise whether you ask for it or want it or not. I can't believe how many times I had to struggle against succumbing to the urge to grab the first shoulder-fired weapon on display I can reach and vertical-buttstroke the fuck out of one of these asshats.

SIG-SAUER PRE-OWNDED I think the closest you can hope to get to a "can't-lose" situation is Sig Sauers' Pre-Owned program. Sig pistols enjoy an excellent reputation the world over and are preferred by all sorts of military and law enforcements agencies; if you shoot one, you'll know why. I've shot Sig-Sauer pistols in ,22, .380, 9mm, and .45 and each one was absolutely superb, with the worst (if not to say *only*) gripe I had was with the .380 caliber P232 model, which likely due to the extensive use of polymers and lightweight alloys made the perceived recoil a tad harsh relative to what I'd come to expect with other models.

Sig Sauer will take back handguns they've sold to client agencies, whereupon a Sig armorer checks it over and either gives it a clean bill of health or replaces various parts as is necessary to get it there. Once this is done, they find their way back on some gun retailers' shelves with a significant markdown (usually $300 to $400 off). Considering that the break-in period for a Sig can be as high as 10,000 rounds, the piece should be about as cherry and unspoiled as the contents of a prom queens' panties.

[Gregster]

...two more things...

CHECK THE FINISH other than bluing, a gun may also may have nickel plating. I don't see to much of this, but I dunno if that's important. On a more personal note, I also don't much care for nickel plating for a couple of reasons:

• Last I checked, the jury was still out on the benefits of having this done.
• I fear that the glare coming off it in the presence of enough ambient light might present a problem in aiming it.. Though I must hasten to point out that I've never had this happen to me, observe it, or hear someone else bitch about it.
• I think it makes the gun look like something a pimp in a '70s blaxploitation flick might point at you if you ain't got his damned money. But hey, to each their own...if you're drop a few hundred on something get something you like

Look for spots where it may be peeling; this is the hallmark of a shitty plating job, and when it goes, there's no hope short of unplating it (something I also can't say I'm certain can be done) and redoing the job.

Another of my aforementioned deceased uncles' pistols was a 1911 frame .45 ACP which according to info I dug up was probably WWII vintage, making it a collectors' item and also damned hard to come by. It had such a finish, and it was peeling badly, almost certainly due to the sort of crap plating job I mentioned earlier.

Even more disturbing was the fact that my uncle allowed this to be done. I can't explain why in 25 words or less, but there you have it. I wanted to cry, then pistol-whip the guy who did it within an inch of his sorry, not-nickel-plating-worth-a-fuck life.

THE OWNER MANUAL: ASSUME NOTHING!! I'd like to think I know as much about guns as anyone, but some things have gotten by me that I discovered by accident. There may be little plastic parts in the weapon (if it never got fired). It may have been treated with something at the factory to prevent rust/etc and needs to be cleaned, or (in autos, anyway) may be picky about reliably chambering special-purpose ammo. Assume nnothing.

Okay...THREE things:

First time out, shoot good ammo. Your better-quality ammo often performs better, and (assuming you can shoot well) and gives you a more reliable idea how accurate the weapon is

[The Korean]

Gregster could you give me some advice on shotguns? I've been considering buying a Mossberg 500. It's going to be my first firearm and any advice would be appreciated man. You seem to really know what you're talking about.

[younggunz]

Originally Posted by The Korean

Gregster could you give me some advice on shotguns? I've been considering buying a Mossberg 500. It's going to be my first firearm and any advice would be appreciated man. You seem to really know what you're talking about.

well since you ahve already bought it.....my advice is to be careful when you clean it..

do not take the trigger assembly apart..
the inside of this gun is like a clock...tons of moving parts...
do some research about the weapon before you go about cleaning it.

[Gregster]

Originally Posted by The Korean

Gregster could you give me some advice on shotguns? I've been considering buying a Mossberg 500. It's going to be my first firearm and any advice would be appreciated man. You seem to really know what you're talking about.

Damn...sorry if it looked like I was gaffing you on. The chaotic nature of real life is clashing my INternet one.

I need to be brief, so here goes: for as long as I can recall, Mossberg has been a widely-respected gun maker, and they produce a quality product which (unless they changed their retail pricing structure and I didn't hear about it) can be had for a reasonable price.

NOTE: what follows is predicated on the assumption that you're buying this gun for home defense, something for which shotguns are well-suited. As I said before, a firearm is pretty much just a tool, and the conventional wisdom about tools applies (read: get the right one for the job). If I'm missing something or assume incorrectly, let me know.

Whoops..gotta go. I'll finish later on ASAP.

[younggunz]

greg, are you still in the bridge? let's go shoot