[King Kabuki]

The Samurai in my view were nothing but that centuries mafia thugs pure and simple. Everyone assume (and we know what that means) they were these honorable warriors, horsecrap in my book. I'm sure their were honorable Samurais just like there were honorable people, few and far between.

It's just as assinine to assume completely the other way. Samurai were the Soldiers of their era. Despite that the Bushido wasn't romantically defined until around Tokugawa, it doesn't mean they didn't have standards of ethics. Class systems were what feudal Japan was based on and traditionally while as hypocritical as any other class in many senses, the Samurai who were more like you described were typically Ronin. Samurai with no work.

The class of people who more fit your description of "Mafia thugs", were Ninja. They'd do anything for money once they established themselves as the antithesis of Samurai.

[Gregster]

It's been ages since I last broke out my beat-up old copy of The Book Of Five Rings which I got...I dunno, somewhere. I don't recall where, I just wound up with it. Though it was not too hard a book to come by, as I do recall that right about that period when I made a couple passes through it (mid-80s to early-90s) that everyone from cubicle-dwelling middle managers to big swinging corporate dicks with MBAs was reading The Book Of Five Rings. I recall that this was because together with Sun Tzu's Art Of War it was-- for all intents and purposes anyway-- required reading for Japanese white-collar grunts who were thoroughly indoctrinated in the prevailing "business = war" attitude of Japans' corporate sector and who thus were expected to draw lessons in conducting business affairs from a centuries-old treatise on swordsmanship and warfighting.

Since the Japanese corporate/business juggernaut at the time appeared to be on an unstoppable jag of growth, acquisition, and expansion, and it seemed the Japanese could do no wrong (that being the sort of perception which, like with the US economy in the 1920s, the 1980s, and again with the dot-com economy in the '90s was ruined when the Japanese economic bubble popped and the end of the '80s, right after ours did) the conventional wisdom was that since your company was either going to compete or get bought out by the Japanese (or, God willing, succeed like they were in Japan) it was imperative to learn to think as they did, do as they did, and ultimately prosper as they did by untangling the heavy mysteries and deep secrets of their social and business culture. I think this mostly worked about as well as it did when jazz musicians started shooting heroin thinking that since Charlie Parker was a smackhead and an extremely gifted jazz musician, he must have been getting his inspiration and talent intravenously (and they were, of course, wrong).

As far as Musashi being, more or less, a sucker-puncher when it came to fighting: the samurai believed, per the ethics and philosophy of bushido, that life was essentially cheap (though I admit I am over-simplifyimg a bit). As soon as he woke up in the morning, the samurai was expected to accept, and be at at peace with, the idea that today could be the day they punched out. Given the circumstances of the time and place, it was not a far-fetched idea for them. Within the sometimes complex and convoluted social etiquette of the samurai, the simple act of allowing the scabbard of your sword to clash against that of another samurai you passed on the street was an insult, a grievous affront that instantly precipitated a fight to the death; for this reason, over time many samurai worked to develop techniques allowing them to draw their sword, turn to face an opponent, and cut him down all in one smooth, deft, and lightening-fast motion.

Within this sort of culture, I believe that once you so much as indicated your willingness or desire to fight, then it was officially "on." Masashi, as I recall, was one of many samurai who disdained a lot of the protocols and window-dressing of dueling and took the simple, straightforward view which held that if you were gonna bring it, you became fair game, and if you were divested of your head before you could even get your sword unsheathed...well, then it just sucked to be you,

Then again, Masashi was so at one with the samurai ideal that at some point (so the story goes, anyway) he quit bathing, apparently so intent was he on not being caught off his guard that he didn't want to disrobe and set his sword aside long enough to wash his increasingly funky-smelling ass (I believe this is why he is often depicted in period as being a tad dishevelled).

[greg_davis11]

i have read his book before. very good

[George Brooks]

I wish that more martial artists today read it. It's pretty much required reading, it helped me mentally as much as anything.

[TacWar]

Within this sort of culture, I believe that once you so much as indicated your willingness or desire to fight, then it was officially "on." Masashi, as I recall, was one of many samurai who disdained a lot of the protocols and window-dressing of dueling and took the simple, straightforward view which held that if you were gonna bring it, you became fair game, and if you were divested of your head before you could even get your sword unsheathed...well, then it just sucked to be you,

Well said

[flatline]

Originally Posted by King Kabuki

It's just as assinine to assume completely the other way. Samurai were the Soldiers of their era. Despite that the Bushido wasn't romantically defined until around Tokugawa, it doesn't mean they didn't have standards of ethics. Class systems were what feudal Japan was based on and traditionally while as hypocritical as any other class in many senses, the Samurai who were more like you described were typically Ronin. Samurai with no work.

The class of people who more fit your description of "Mafia thugs", were Ninja. They'd do anything for money once they established themselves as the antithesis of Samurai.

Or just yojimbo/yakuza... there were plenty of them theiving, doing pirate things.

[The_Bear]

The samurai lived and died for what they believed in and never backed down from it at all. They served their damaiyo with loyalty and respect and protected their people from harm and dishonor. The samurai follwed shinto and some zen buddhist ways and realized the fragile body of life and how it can be taken from you within a heart beat and so they were in peace with the fact that they could die and would not deny it. They held high honor and respect for themselves and most of the human race in general and if broken should be punished ( no not all samurai killed each othe rin duel or assianted criminals, there would be none left if that continued to happen). Mafia in japan is the yakuza who are even in present day the largest criminal enterprise in the world. The ninja and ninjitsu are a complicated story and i wont get into that now.

[flatline]

Originally Posted by George Brooks

I wish that more martial artists today read it. It's pretty much required reading, it helped me mentally as much as anything.

I agree. One way it helped me very noticeably is in the area of closing out, 'holding down the pillow' or 'stomping the sword' as he says.

[Eduardo R.]

Where's the incentive to fight fair? I don't know about you but I'd like to minimize my chances of getting stabbed in the face. If that means stabbing a guy who threatened me while he's sitting down, so be it.

[ratman201]

Originally Posted by rghtcrs4u

i know he is considered one of the best sword fighters ever...but does anybody think his fighting methods were a little cheap. i read a book about his strategies...seems like he was pretty much a cheater...he used to attack people before they were ready...just seemed kinda cheap because my perception of the samauri was that they were very honorable and always had respect for their opponent....this just kinda made me wonder...

what do yall think?

Many modern perceptions of how a Samurai should act were invented late in the Tokugawa shogunate after many many years of peace. The samurai had the authority, money and most importantly free time, due to having no job, to wax philosophical about the nature of honor and duty without their ideas ever being put to test during a time of war.

These Tokugawa area ideas about the samurai spirit are totally at odds with writings of earlier times during which the country was in a perpetual state of civil war for hundreds of years. Samurai, hid, assassinated, switched sides, retreated from battle just as much as any other prudent soldiers, generals and/or politicians have in other cultures through out history.