[SamuraiRat]

Years ago I saw Jeff Cooper on TV talking about how The best handgun to fight with is a high caliber cannon(357, 44, 45, ^). The logic is that these guns will keep a man down, unlike a 9mm which takes 3-4 shots to do the same damage. My question: is this logical for home defence?

[peregrine]

I disagree on any caliber pistol being a good man stopper.
Though any bullet that will hit them in the head will surely give you more time. I'd choose a hit of a lowly .22lr in someones face over hitting them with a .45cal ball ammo in the body. That would give me more time to follow up shoot him again in the head or flee.

I feel a shotgun in 00buck is more effective in home defence. In a 2.75" shell that should be 9 ballbearings the size of .37-.38 cal going down range. Or equivalent to shooting a .38 pistol 9 times. If i remember correctly a 3" 00buck shell carries a payload of 16 ball bearings measuring .37-.38cal.

A .45cal is around 230gr of ****l coming at you, some 9mm are as light as 115gr. But the bullet design and speed now make a bigger difference than they did 40years ago(approx) when ball ammo is all you had.

Jeff Cooper definatelly knows what he's talking about, but he was from an age of years gone by. His books and training are still the bench mark of many, but things improve as we get more experience and technology advances. Todays rds are more scientifically designed to create more trauma, so a .45cal ball wound of yesterday would be less than some of the newer police or self defense rounds. Jeff Cooper taught the same curriculum for years, not taking into account new developments found in the field or shown in combat shoots. To me this was a mistake. If you are familiar with Coopers works it is a very good base, but just as mma has evolved through training and actual fights so has the art of using the pistol in combat.

Never get to the point of stopping to learn and field test things.
Airsoft in the recent years has proven a huge myth buster, it is to some equivalent to actual sparring in fighting. The stand and plant your feet in a pistol fight to send rounds down range is now being seriouslly questioned as both shooters are recieving hits, possibly both being mortal.

[XTrainer]

9mm is generally considered "bare minimum" for self-defense. That's from Gresham, and I'd agree.

[younggunz]

Originally Posted by peregrine

I disagree on any caliber pistol being a good man stopper.
Though any bullet that will hit them in the head will surely give you more time. I'd choose a hit of a lowly .22lr in someones face over hitting them with a .45cal ball ammo in the body. That would give me more time to follow up shoot him again in the head or flee.

I feel a shotgun in 00buck is more effective in home defence. In a 2.75" shell that should be 9 ballbearings the size of .37-.38 cal going down range. Or equivalent to shooting a .38 pistol 9 times. If i remember correctly a 3" 00buck shell carries a payload of 16 ball bearings measuring .37-.38cal.

A .45cal is around 230gr of ****l coming at you, some 9mm are as light as 115gr. But the bullet design and speed now make a bigger difference than they did 40years ago(approx) when ball ammo is all you had.

Jeff Cooper definatelly knows what he's talking about, but he was from an age of years gone by. His books and training are still the bench mark of many, but things improve as we get more experience and technology advances. Todays rds are more scientifically designed to create more trauma, so a .45cal ball wound of yesterday would be less than some of the newer police or self defense rounds. Jeff Cooper taught the same curriculum for years, not taking into account new developments found in the field or shown in combat shoots. To me this was a mistake. If you are familiar with Coopers works it is a very good base, but just as mma has evolved through training and actual fights so has the art of using the pistol in combat.

Never get to the point of stopping to learn and field test things.
Airsoft in the recent years has proven a huge myth buster, it is to some equivalent to actual sparring in fighting. The stand and plant your feet in a pistol fight to send rounds down range is now being seriouslly questioned as both shooters are recieving hits, possibly both being mortal.

a head shot over a shot center mass? hmm

[Trashed666]

The main "logic" with the higher caliber bullets = more mass knocking someone down, the larger bullet larger impact. Instead of going through some one its supposed to knock them down with the kinetic energy. 9mm was known as a good penetrating round but it didn't have the same tramatic force as a .44 cal. I personally believe a shotty with .00 will more than suffice the average mans home defense needs.

Like stated before with the evolution of todays ammuntion 9mm hollow points will pretty much meet or exceed the same standards of wound trama by any of the larger calibers of yesterday. A one of the things to think about when using a pistol for home defense is over penetration. You don't want to be sending bulletst hrough your wall and into the neighbors house or into one of your childrens rooms which is why I choose a shotty over anyone of my pisols for home defense anyday.

[younggunz]

Originally Posted by Trashed666

The main "logic" with the higher caliber bullets = more mass knocking someone down, the larger bullet larger impact. Instead of going through some one its supposed to knock them down with the kinetic energy. 9mm was known as a good penetrating round but it didn't have the same tramatic force as a .44 cal. I personally believe a shotty with .00 will more than suffice the average mans home defense needs.

Like stated before with the evolution of todays ammuntion 9mm hollow points will pretty much meet or exceed the same standards of wound trama by any of the larger calibers of yesterday. A one of the things to think about when using a pistol for home defense is over penetration. You don't want to be sending bulletst hrough your wall and into the neighbors house or into one of your childrens rooms which is why I choose a shotty over anyone of my pisols for home defense anyday.

yeah
00 is a great self defense round, lots of power, and a tight group for cqc

situations that require handguns should be no further than 10-20 feet... at this distance, initial punch is deadly important... larger calibers are much more forgiving when it comes to shot placement..

[peregrine]

Originally Posted by younggunz

a head shot over a shot center mass? hmm

yes i'd prefer a hs over hit in the body, not necesarily saying center of mass, but even a center of mass shot. especially with a pistol in almost any caliber.

you?

[younggunz]

Originally Posted by peregrine

yes i'd prefer a hs over hit in the body, not necesarily saying center of mass, but even a center of mass shot. especially with a pistol in almost any caliber.

you?

well if we are talking about caliber limitations...

certain situations might call for shots placed near the solar plexus..

gettting car jacked for instance..you are sitting...with no chance at a head shot..
if he is wearing a large jacket, sweatshirt and such, I would prefer a larger caliber round..

my main point is that headshots aren't always viable options...they are terrible for cqc situations where 100% accuracy is required to prevent friendly or civi casualties (unless you are talking about a hostage situation or a blocked body situation), and are unnatural using point-shoot LOS...they are extremely effective I agree, but not the go to in a delicate situation...

[peregrine]

Originally Posted by younggunz

well if we are talking about caliber limitations...

certain situations might call for shots placed near the solar plexus..

gettting car jacked for instance..you are sitting...with no chance at a head shot..
if he is wearing a large jacket, sweatshirt and such, I would prefer a larger caliber round..

my main point is that headshots aren't always viable options...they are terrible for cqc situations where 100% accuracy is required to prevent friendly or civi casualties (unless you are talking about a hostage situation or a blocked body situation), and are unnatural using point-shoot LOS...they are extremely effective I agree, but not the go to in a delicate situation...

agreed.

[mixicus]

The 'best' fighting handgun has all the following:

1) high quailty, reliable
2) caliber of at least 9mm/.38
3) loaded with high quality self defense type loads (hollow points)
4) feels good in YOUR hands and YOU can shoot well (multiple shots in the A-zone in rapid succession)
5) that you practice/train with regularly

After that it is all dogma and debate fodder.