[Barut]

Wow. Thanks for the great information Chris.

Del, you're being an asshole man. You have no business telling a man how to care for his family. Maybe when you have kids of your own (hopefully not before you get your paranoia in check) you'll understand the importance of keeping them safe from dangers in the house as well as out.

[one80to1]

I've never heard anyone say that a shotgun is not a good HD weapon. Its a good close quarter weapon PERIOD with a lot of versatility in the range of ammo you can use. Use bird loads or non-lethals if over penetration is a concern.

Unless you're a marked man who has to worry about an Colombian hit squad (50+ armed men strong) charging up you're house a shotgun is perfectly fine.

[Xenu]

I know you guys got caught up debating. Maybe you missed my post:

Originally Posted by Xenu

Good information, Chris B.

Any thoughts on semi-auto shotguns v pump action?

[Chris B]

Sorry Xenu. I did miss it. I don't really have a strong preference. Some people argue for the simplicity of the pump and that it can feed rocks through it because of the action while others argue for the speed of cycling that a semi-automatic brings to the table. I own all pumps. My "defensive" shotgun is a Remington 870 because that was all we were allowed to carry if we bought our own shotgun. I actually kind of like the Mossberg myself though. All my bird guns are Mossberg pumps.

The only reason I haven't bought a semi-automatic shotgun is that it was money I would rather spend on other weapons. You could always go with one of the Benelli models that is a semi-automatic but that can convert to a pump for clearing jams. I really think the real issue is the quality of the weapon. I don't think you will go "wrong" if you get a reliable semi-auto, but it still only holds roughly 7-9 rounds and then your back to reloading just like any other shotgun. You can also cycle the pump quickly if you practice with it enough too. Bottom line, I really think it is just personal preference.

[Gregster]

Originally Posted by Der_Teufel

ugh... another guy the equates shotgun to HD. Seriously the weapons noobs on these forums are rampant.

And if you have any doubts: here comes Der_Teufel, proving it by running his big fat mouth.

Ask Pat Rogers or any real CQB instructor what he has next to his bedside.

Ask any CQB what he has next to next to his bed? Is that a Zen riddle?

I know if I was a CQB instructor, and you asked me what I keep at my bedside, I'd say "An Ikea table lamp" in the hopes you bought one and not something deadly, like a firearm`.

[Gregster]

Originally Posted by Der_Teufel

I'm still waiting for the "racking the pump will scare off the intruder BS."

Funny you should say that: it's been something I routinely point out as one of the advantages of a pump shotgun for home defense in threads like this. But only because it's true, and I know what I'm talking about.

Professional home burglarly is not an occupation favored by ex-Navy SEALs and people with a thirst for danger. A number of studies conducted among inmates in prison locked up for burglary have proven about as well as can be from population sampling that burglars prefer to case a target residence before breaking in in order to make reasonably certain it will be empty when before moving into action. This is because they tend to be overwhelmingly disinclined to break into a home that is occupied at all, never mind occupied by someone they suspect is armed and willing or able to kill them.

Beyond said studies, I know of a couple places (one in Texas, the others I don't recall) where firearms ownership within the city limits is not only encourage but compulsory; B&E and/or burglary crimes are all but unheard of in these jurisdictions.

You don't need a PhD in Criminal Psych to figure out that criminals-- whether they mug people, rob their houses, knock over the liquor store they work in, or whatever-- select a mark that they think can and/or will fight back effectively, cause them problems, and certainly maim or kill them. If you can find a single verifiable anecdote where a homeowner, cop, or corrections officer racked a shotgun and readied it to shoot, and doing so motivated a criminal *NOT* whacked out of their skull on PCP or *NOT* a violent fugitive fleeing arrest who decided they'd rather die than be collared to hang out and attack them instead of beat feet in the opposite direction of the shotgun as fast as possible, I'd love to see it.

On a personal level: after being obliged to wake up and arm myself at 3 A.M. three times in my first apartment by the sound of homeless and/or crack-addicted people trying to jimmy open my sliding glass door, I taped a sign on it informing any prospective guests who came to call uninvited in the wee hours that:

1) The resident of the apartment was armed and,
2) would not hesitate to blow a new asshole into anyone who managed to succeed getting inside.

Total number of incidents after that = 0.

Though I suppose that'd never work on you, as you strike me as the sort of person who would ignore such a sign, break in, and then RUN towards the sound of someone racking the slide on a shotgun and preparing to go "hot." 'Cuz you're a total badass like that.

[Gregster]

Originally Posted by Der_Teufel

and to the dude who wrote "get the longest barrel possible"... get a clue and stop spreading your BS around the internet please.

Yeah! Instead, do what Der_Teufel does: confine your BS to Sherdog and recommend getting something short and compact, like a fucking AR-15 battle rifle.

Moron.

ETA... remember with a shotgun you have to be accountable for 8 pellets...

This is important to know if you can't afford a licensed Public Shotgun Pellet Accountant and are at risk of being audited by the Internal Scattergun Service.

The correct answer in the opinion of most people high up the CQB food chain is the AR15 family of weapons systems.

I can only assume that "CQB" in this context stands for "Catastrophically Queasy Busboys" and not "Close-Quarter Battle," since this would mean that SWAT teams, the FBI HRT, the Navy SEALs, British SAS, USMC FAST, and special police and military tactical units worldwide who routinely deploy shotguns (and 9mm or .45-caliber SMGs similarly designed for close combat) for CQB don't know anything about fighting in close-quarters.

The .223 surprisingly does not penetrate as well in walls and you may think since it fragments like a motherfuck when it hits something relatively soft.

I guess this means your skull is virtually immune to incoming .223 fire.

[Gregster]

Originally Posted by Der_Teufel

And 30rds vs. 7 rounds?? And you now have the ability to punch through body armor.

So...your standard five-five-six fragments when it hits drywall but will punch through body armor? Jesus H. Tap-Dancing Christ, I am at once inconsolable *AND* furious that I have for so long been denied the wealth of expertise you bring to this forum.

On behalf of all Americans with loved ones currently fighting in Iraq, I humbly ask that you travel there are hold training classes...for the other side, that is.

One could only hope that you could tell the Iraqi insurgent fighters that American body armor-- like the kind the troops wear-- won't stand up to .223 fire while these same rounds-- which all the troops use-- splinter upon hitting drywall with a sufficient air of authority to convince them. That way, when the insurgents strap slabs of drywall to their torsos and come at a battalion of Marine infantry thinking they are impervious to bullet wounds, they'll get fucking slaughtered.

Originally Posted by Der_Teufel

While I still remember... before you buy any accessory, save yourself some money and get some training at Blackwater, Frontsite, etc to figure out what you want.

Yeah, because who *DOESN'T* have the time and money to head out to Moyock, NC or Mt. Carroll, IL and take a Blackwater combat shooting course? I mean, if buying a $300 piece of hardware is a major purchasing decision for someone, making the trek out to a top-notch professional firearms seminar would be a bargain.

Actually, I think taking a modestly-priced NRA course of the sort commonly available at reputable firing ranges to become familiar with the operation of the weapon and proficient at hitting stuff is enough for most folks. Of course, for people like you-- who seem to live in areas plagued by burglaries committed by guys clad in full body armor who don't know the meaning of fear, and for that matter are probably ninja commandos-- you'll need something a bit more thorough.

[Gregster]

Originally Posted by Der_Teufel

You lost me at the part when you mentioned at skipping buckshot and aiming for the legs... Who on earth taught you that?

Actually, it's a commonly-taught tactic for hitting someone taking cover behind a vehicle.

Because hitting someone in the legs is not going to stop their desire to want to kill you, only a central nervous system or respiratory system hit will.

I agree; if someone pumped my legs full of buckshot, my desire to kill them would probably increase exponentially.

However, it occurs to me that this would be attended by an inversely proportional effect on my *ABILITY* to actually kill them stemming from the severe reduction in mobility and overall combat-effectiveness resulting from my legs being reduced to a shredded, shattered, bloody, pulpy mess. This, I think, would prevail over my desire and ability to inflict injury upon the guy who just fucking shot me. That is, taking into account that even if for some reason or other-- be it adrenaline, the influence of very bad drugs, or, were I you, retard strength-- I would still be inclined to attack.

I'd ask you not to take my word for it, but I don't want to be held liable in court for compelling a delusional simpleton who whacks off to Soldier Of Fortune magazine to shoot himself in the legs with a shotgun.

Originally Posted by Der_Teufel

Moreover, if you did take any classes, I would ask for a refund, since you still keep your weapons "secured" at all times. In your gun fight, you have enough time to get to your gun, however that simply might not be the case when the situation happens. The problem is everyone envisions exactly how their gunfight will happen and plans for that instead of planning for all possible scenarios. For me, I always had planned that I could load a mag and turn on my aimpoint in time, which simply was not the case in some drills I did. I now run irons and a surefire weapons light on my AR and thats it... no new fangled crap to get in the way.

1) Securing a weapon doesn't mean it needs to be locked in a Ft. Knox home gunsafe.

2) If you took any parenting classes, I'd ask for your money back, as they seem to have convinced you that kids never disobey their parents or do stupid things like ass around with dads' guns.

3) If you don't have to take parenting classes because you've not bred yet: thank you, and please keep it that way.

[Gregster]

[quote=Der_Teufel;20564020]

carry my G21 on my hip open carry on my property at all times, the AR15 is in the bedroom. After all, pistols are only for fighting to your rifle.

Lemme get this straight:

1) You carry a .45 handgun (this is the Glock G21, right?) on your hip whilst out and about roaming "your property," as you prefer to keep a full-size shoulder-arm stashed in your bedroom for home defense?

2) If confronted with a lethal force situation in close quarters, you'd proceed from the assumption that your .45 handgun...

...that it, your pistol loaded with a round having a large diameter and relatively slow muzzle velocity, specifically conceived and designed around the turn of the century for the purpose of stopping even the most determined assailant (read: drugged-up Moro tribesmen with blood in their eyes who were not stopped by .38 bullets which were standard issue to US soldiers at the start of the Phillipine Insurrection) at very close distances...

...is suited only "fighting to your rifle," which while hardly the worst thing to shoot in-close is better-suited for killing people at longer ranges?

Tell me something about these CQB classes you took: were you perhaps driven out the training site in a special short bus?