[Der_Teufel]

[quote=Chris B;20532096]

Originally Posted by mobeck

And the last thing you should be worrying about if intruders are in your home is damage to your walls...
QUOTE]

The issue with sheet rock is not damage, it is overpenetration. The last thing you want is the round penetrating multiple walls and killing your child playing/sleeping in the next room or a spouse. Tests conducted by the FBI and the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center actually showed the .223 had less penetration than a standard 9mm round. The 9mm penetrated several internal walls and exited the enternal as well in most weights and loads of 9mm. The .223 faired better.

How much tactical training have you personally had? Standing at a range holding a weapon aimed in is NOT tactical training. I am talking force on force, move to cover drills, responsive shooter drills, etc. Shotguns are not the ultimate answer for every situation. Like was mentioned earlier....You are responsible for every ballistic moving down range. Every time you pull a trigger, you WILL be held liable for the innocent person outside your house that gets killed or injured.

Your time would be better spent learning one weapon well than learning a few half ass. The handgun can also be carried in many states with a concealed carry permit and is a more versatile weapon. The shotgun is an effective weapon if used right, but you need to understand its limitations.

As far as the argument of defeating body armour. Many criminals now days do wear vests. There is an easy solution though. We were always taught to shoot in threes (two to the chest, one to the head, or two to the chest, one to the groin) in order to defeat body armour.

The argument against a shotgun being used against body armour is actually not that strong. Just take out the legs. One cool thing about 00 Buck is that you can skip it off the ground too (ie. under a car to take out someone's legs on the other side of it). It is also a good weapon against a body bunker when targeting the lower extremities. Granted, you probably won't ever have to use it for those reasons, but the comment is just to show that it can be very effective in the right hands.

Personally, all my weapons are secured, unloaded in a safe except one that is in a small safe that is easy to get to in my home. My personal home defense weapon is a Glock 31 (with the .357 barrel swapped with the .40 barrel), with a Hogue Grip, Trijicon Orange/Green night sights, and an Insight Techonology Tac Light. I am using Remington Golden Sabre Hollow Points as the ammunition. The .40 cal round is slower, larger and less likely to overpenetrate when compared to a 9mm. Just my personal pick.

You lost me at the part when you mentioned at skipping buckshot and aiming for the legs... Who on earth taught you that? Because hitting someone in the legs is not going to stop their desire to want to kill you, only a central nervous system or respiratory system hit will. Moreover, if you did take any classes, I would ask for a refund, since you still keep your weapons "secured" at all times. In your gun fight, you have enough time to get to your gun, however that simply might not be the case when the situation happens. The problem is everyone envisions exactly how their gunfight will happen and plans for that instead of planning for all possible scenarios. For me, I always had planned that I could load a mag and turn on my aimpoint in time, which simply was not the case in some drills I did. I now run irons and a surefire weapons light on my AR and thats it... no new fangled crap to get in the way.

[Chris B]

[quote=Der_Teufel;20563105]

Originally Posted by Chris B

You lost me at the part when you mentioned at skipping buckshot and aiming for the legs... Who on earth taught you that? Because hitting someone in the legs is not going to stop their desire to want to kill you, only a central nervous system or respiratory system hit will. Moreover, if you did take any classes, I would ask for a refund, since you still keep your weapons "secured" at all times. In your gun fight, you have enough time to get to your gun, however that simply might not be the case when the situation happens. The problem is everyone envisions exactly how their gunfight will happen and plans for that instead of planning for all possible scenarios. For me, I always had planned that I could load a mag and turn on my aimpoint in time, which simply was not the case in some drills I did. I now run irons and a surefire weapons light on my AR and thats it... no new fangled crap to get in the way.

You shouldn't be so quick to start being condescending. First of all, why don't you give us your background. Second, I served in one of the most active Federal Law Enforcement Agencies in the United States, the United States Marshals Service. In fact, we served more warrants nationally than all other agencies combined. I received all my training from the government, not some civilian shooting school. You obviously do not know what your talking about. My closest friends in the agency were former operators with various branches of the armed services.

First, a central nervous system hit IS the only way to instantly put someone down, but unless your a freaking sniper who can hit someone below the ear, under the nose, base of the neck, etc. every time with a thinking, moving dynamic target.......you've been watching too much anime.

The second most viable target is a major artery (ie the Carotid or Femural) which would be the inner thigh/groin. A respiratory shot may or may not stop your aggressor instantly. I have personally (not second hand) seen survaillance video of a 40-50 year old women shot point blank with a .357 magnum as she worked a convienent store. We watched as she hit the floor, stood up, called 911 for help, then died 1/2 a minute later as we watched the tape. She had NO training and when the autopsy was finished, she had no more than a pinky worth of her heart left. Remember she had the wherewithal to get up, call 911, and continued functioning after she was shot. I have seen countless other examples like this FIRST HAND.

Another example was a Sheriff's deputy who shot a subject through the top of the head down through the neck among other shots where the suspect kept fighting for seconds later. When that autopsy was done, he had NO drugs in his system. Seconds in a gun fight is an eternity that the suspect could have killed the deputy.

You should also learn to read a freaking post. I said all but my home defense weapon were locked. There is a greater chance of one of my five kids killing themselves than ever needing it for a home invasion. Once again, the loaded Glock 31 is in a Mossberg safe with the keypad entry.

As far as the shotgun comment. All that proves is that you have no idea what reality is. I used that as only one example of the versatility of a shotgun. In a stand off, where a suspect is behind a vehicle, etc., it is an option to take them off their feet. I did not say instantly kill them. Many agencies are taught this. If your so damn wise, than write the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center and lodge your objection to the numerous Federal SOG and Special Ops trainers that taught me this "crap".

[Xenu]

Good information, Chris B.

Any thoughts on semi-auto shotguns v pump action?

[Chris B]

Second thought is this. Do you keep your AR-15 slung in at all times on a bi-lateral as you cook, shower, sleep, etc. I highly doubt it. What gives you an advantage with a firearm is time AND distance. You take away either of those and the tactical advantage gained by a firearm is reduced. If I have so little time to enter a short finger combination, grab my loaded weapon, and fire......then I made the wrong decision going to the weapon in the first place.

I should have closed the gap and controlled the perp. This is the same argument idiots make about getting NO hand to hand training because they carry a weapon. Most shootings occur 3-5 feet away. 3-5 FEET. If someone is that close, you better damn well be able to control them and then transition to the weapon anyways. Personally, I am more concerned about 1 of my 5 kids under 9 years old picking up my unsecured loaded weapon. That scenario is MUCH more likely.

[Der_Teufel]

Originally Posted by Chris B

Second thought is this. Do you keep your AR-15 slung in at all times on a bi-lateral as you cook, shower, sleep, etc. I highly doubt it. What gives you an advantage with a firearm is time AND distance. You take away either of those and the tactical advantage gained by a firearm is reduced. If I have so little time to enter a short finger combination, grab my loaded weapon, and fire......then I made the wrong decision going to the weapon in the first place.

I should have closed the gap and controlled the perp. This is the same argument idiots make about getting NO hand to hand training because they carry a weapon. Most shootings occur 3-5 feet away. 3-5 FEET. If someone is that close, you better damn well be able to control them and then transition to the weapon anyways. Personally, I am more concerned about 1 of my 5 kids under 9 years old picking up my unsecured loaded weapon. That scenario is MUCH more likely.

I carry my G21 on my hip open carry on my property at all times, the AR15 is in the bedroom. After all, pistols are only for fighting to your rifle. Also, if you teach your kids the importance of gun safety, you won't have to be worried about them using your weapon. Its a parenting thing, NOT a gun thing.

[Der_Teufel]

[quote=Chris B;20563571]

Originally Posted by Der_Teufel

You shouldn't be so quick to start being condescending. First of all, why don't you give us your background. Second, I served in one of the most active Federal Law Enforcement Agencies in the United States, the United States Marshals Service. In fact, we served more warrants nationally than all other agencies combined. I received all my training from the government, not some civilian shooting school. You obviously do not know what your talking about. My closest friends in the agency were former operators with various branches of the armed services.

First, a central nervous system hit IS the only way to instantly put someone down, but unless your a freaking sniper who can hit someone below the ear, under the nose, base of the neck, etc. every time with a thinking, moving dynamic target.......you've been watching too much anime.

The second most viable target is a major artery (ie the Carotid or Femural) which would be the inner thigh/groin. A respiratory shot may or may not stop your aggressor instantly. I have personally (not second hand) seen survaillance video of a 40-50 year old women shot point blank with a .357 magnum as she worked a convienent store. We watched as she hit the floor, stood up, called 911 for help, then died 1/2 a minute later as we watched the tape. She had NO training and when the autopsy was finished, she had no more than a pinky worth of her heart left. Remember she had the wherewithal to get up, call 911, and continued functioning after she was shot. I have seen countless other examples like this FIRST HAND.

Another example was a Sheriff's deputy who shot a subject through the top of the head down through the neck among other shots where the suspect kept fighting for seconds later. When that autopsy was done, he had NO drugs in his system. Seconds in a gun fight is an eternity that the suspect could have killed the deputy.

You should also learn to read a freaking post. I said all but my home defense weapon were locked. There is a greater chance of one of my five kids killing themselves than ever needing it for a home invasion. Once again, the loaded Glock 31 is in a Mossberg safe with the keypad entry.

As far as the shotgun comment. All that proves is that you have no idea what reality is. I used that as only one example of the versatility of a shotgun. In a stand off, where a suspect is behind a vehicle, etc., it is an option to take them off their feet. I did not say instantly kill them. Many agencies are taught this. If your so damn wise, than write the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center and lodge your objection to the numerous Federal SOG and Special Ops trainers that taught me this "crap".

Easy there Sherk, like I said keeping a weapon unsecured is only a matter of teaching your kids, its not going to go off by itself. Second of all, I've ALWAYS been taught to shoot center of mass or head, with groin being a secondary option. My only major concern with your post was training to use ricochet as a viable way to get around barriers and the fact that you encourage to secure firearms at night, because like I said, everyone thinks of their own gunfight and gets into the mind frame of thinking that way. You may not have the time when you hear "bump" in the night to get to your safe. Teaching your kids not to touch your guns paramounts a safe, as a safe is only a mechanical device and shouldn't replace parenting. I have trained in numerous CQB courses from Blackwater and Front Sight as well as some seminars at local ranges from top CQB instructors, and train every chance I get and have the goal of 1k rounds of rifle and 500 rounds pistol each month.

[Chris B]

Originally Posted by Der_Teufel

I carry my G21 on my hip open carry on my property at all times, the AR15 is in the bedroom. After all, pistols are only for fighting to your rifle. Also, if you teach your kids the importance of gun safety, you won't have to be worried about them using your weapon. Its a parenting thing, NOT a gun thing.

So now your questioning my parenting skills? Your arrogance amazes me. I have taught my kids gun safety. It doesn't diminish my responsibility to secure the weapons and keep them safe though. I don't even think the NRA or any Law Enforcement Agency ANYWHERE would agree with you if your suggesting that simply teaching children firearm safety is enough to alleviate your responsibility.

Final comment, and then I am done debating with you. You seem like the know it all type who has NO real world experience whatsoever. I learned one thing from military/government training. The biggest bags of crap in the agency or service were the ones who were (1)rude, (2)condescending to others, and (3)loudest in their argument. You have been nothing but rude, ill mannered, and arrogant from your first post in this thread. If you do have some training and knowledge, why don't you try toning it down and helping those who are asking questions instead of insulting them all? Why don't you also keep an open mind when reading other posts before you jump to the "my sensei/dad/trainer" can kick yours ass argument. When you think you've arrived, your dead.

[Der_Teufel]

Originally Posted by Chris B

So now your questioning my parenting skills? Your arrogance amazes me. I have taught my kids gun safety. It doesn't diminish my responsibility to secure the weapons and keep them safe though. I don't even think the NRA or any Law Enforcement Agency ANYWHERE would agree with you if your suggesting that simply teaching children firearm safety is enough to alleviate your responsibility.

Final comment, and then I am done debating with you. You seem like the know it all type who has NO real world experience whatsoever. I learned one thing from military/government training. The biggest bags of crap in the agency or service where the ones who were (1)rude, (2)condescending to others, and (3)loudest in their argument. You have been nothing but rude, ill mannered, and arrogant from your first post in this thread. If you do have some training and knowledge, why don't you try toning it down and helping those who are asking questions instead of insulting them all? Why don't you also keep an open mind when reading other posts before you jump to the "my sensei/dad/trainer" can kick yours ass argument. When you think you've arrived, your dead.

I'm trying to alleviate misinformation perpetrated by people who claim to have military or government training yet don't realize that getting into a safe while under high stress could potentially cause them to not be able to get to their weapon in time.

[Chris B]

It is not misinformation. I do not argue that it takes more time to get to a secured weapon than it does holstered. I never argued that. Your taking what you want out of context and arguing. I simply stated what I do as a matter of preference. You assume what I know and don't know. I DO know that it takes longer to get, but choose that alternative to leaving the weapon unsecured. Most people WILL NOT keep the weapon on them IN their house. PERIOD! Even a weapon stuck on top of the dresser or in a closet takes TIME to get to in a stressful situation. My preference is not misinformation just because I disagree with you. Most "leading" CQB instructors also do not agree on every tactic.

Since your being so friendly to everyone here, let me end by the thought that if your so paranoid, that you feel the NEED to walk around your home in your underwear with an AR strapped in at all times, I'll give you some advice......save the money you would have spent on tactical training and get psychiatric help. There is a difference between preparation/caution and outright paranoia.

[ChuteOut]

Originally Posted by Der_Teufel

I carry my G21 on my hip open carry on my property at all times, the AR15 is in the bedroom. After all, pistols are only for fighting to your rifle. Also, if you teach your kids the importance of gun safety, you won't have to be worried about them using your weapon. Its a parenting thing, NOT a gun thing.

If you have to engage in a running battle with your pistol to get to your rifle your probablly in a situation that your rifle wont do you any good in anyways, and if you think your going to find your self in that type of a situation I hope you keep spare clips handy, and if your incappable of putting one or two intruders down with one 13 round clip than you probablly have no buissness owning firearms in the first place.