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Old 02-13-2007, 12:41 PM   #1 (permalink)
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shamrock gracie UNDER PRIDE RULES

LONG POST PLEASE READ

making this post in response to the main news story on the sherdog main page
http://www.sherdog.com/news/news.asp?n_id=6756.
while i agree with the authors statement that knees to the head should be allowed on the ground in order to balance stalling, it is also possible to do this with rules changes and additionally i think it should be made clear that NOBODY can condone knees to the back of the head as a safe practice.

Frank Shamrock in his prefight interview readily admitted that he didnt train Jui-Jitsui but rather ANTI jui-jitsui, which based on his perfomance against henzo amounted to little more than constant holding of gracie in other words stalling. also keep in mind that frank had to cut weight for this fight, and henzo has fought before at 155, and routinely fights at ADCC in the lightweight weightclass, it would NOT be difficult for a man with that strength advantage to slow down a better grappler with just HOLDING. this is particularly evident after shamrocks comments about "biomechanics" and "conserving energy"

under NSAC rules there is no penalty for a man on bottom holding an attacking jui jitsui stylist on top. there is no penalty for stalling of any kind. In boxing excessive tie ups and holding are penalized why not in MMA. it makes no sense not to penalize a fighter who is not attempting to end the fight by submission or strikes. there is no room for Lay and Pray in MMA in my opinion be it from the top OR the bottom.

what should have occurred is frank shamrock should have been constantly docked points for stalling, and holding, rewatching the fight many times, its clear that frank did not mount one offensive move from the bottom and rather held gracie.

under pride rules the frank would have been docked points for aggressiveness on the bottom, as well as part of his purse. this would have shown the fans new to the sport, which i expect many where in mississippi, that FRANK not HENZO was the one preventing an exciting match.

additionally under pride rules knees to the BACK of the head would be illegal where as has been documented by many threads there is a huge risk of more serious damage due to the location of the brain stem and the hypocampus which is responsible for balance and such. frank would have had the additional weapons of knees to the side of the head WOULD have been allowed, which if u rewatched the end of the fight, HENZO was actually in perfect position for.

under pride rules this match would not have been a debocle it was, NOTE THIS IS NOT A PRIDE NUTHUGGER THREAD, I AM A FAN OF FIGHTERS AND FIGHTS NOT ORGNANIZATIONS. JUST TRYING TO POINT OUT DIFFERENCES IN RULES THAT WOULD STOP THIS KIND OF RIDICULOUS FIGHT SITUATION.
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Old 02-13-2007, 12:43 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Yeah, i'd like to see that.
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Old 02-13-2007, 12:48 PM   #3 (permalink)
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ttt
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Old 02-13-2007, 12:50 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Yeah, i'd pay a whole lot to see that.
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Old 02-13-2007, 12:52 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Frank had no offensive moves from the bottom??? You should be declared legally blind. How about over a dozen knee strikes from the bottom. Oh I forgot they don't do any damage so they don't count but suddenly they did damage when they hit the SIDE of the neck head and the shoulder. ( not the back of the neck and head)... Sigh!

Sorry Frank was scoring from the bottom with knee strikes!
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Old 02-13-2007, 12:54 PM   #6 (permalink)

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To say that penalizing for stalling is a great idea, you also tread a very fine line. To say "Oh, he was stalling," one could say "Well you're just a redneck who doesn't appreciate the ground game."

The fans in Mississippi started booing because of the lack of action, and Bill Goldberg was quick to say that the fans didn't understand the ground game. I've watched that fight a few times, and while I agree that the fans may not of appreciated the ground game as much or perhaps Gracie's styling as far as acquiring different mount positions, I do know that Shamrock wasn't actively attempting to improve his position a few times.
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Old 02-13-2007, 12:57 PM   #7 (permalink)

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Under PRIDE rules Renzo could have also been kneeing him from where he was.

Edit: Just noticed you already mentioned that.
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Old 02-13-2007, 12:59 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Under Pride rules, maybe neither Frank nor Renzo would have fought the same way they did now.

Under Pride rules, both knees to the head,stomps and soccerkicks are allowed!

Would've been a more actionpacked fight i believe.
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Old 02-13-2007, 01:00 PM   #9 (permalink)
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my point is that yeah under pride rules henzo could have kneed from the bottom and franks knees would have been illegal.

also as for the stalling goes, its stalling if you are using clinches and body locks to avoid getting a better position or standing up to where u can strike,
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Old 02-13-2007, 01:01 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmaguy
Frank had no offensive moves from the bottom??? You should be declared legally blind. How about over a dozen knee strikes from the bottom. Oh I forgot they don't do any damage so they don't count but suddenly they did damage when they hit the SIDE of the neck head and the shoulder. ( not the back of the neck and head)... Sigh!

Sorry Frank was scoring from the bottom with knee strikes!
maybe but u cant argue that he had allready been warned, and that if ANY kneeing to the head was allowed HENZO would have had a way better shot at ending the fight seeing he could get sidemount whenever he wanted and was even in north south at one point the most effective places to strike from
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