[Zeke's Chaingun]

Discuss? I think you're a loon, lets dicuss that. Seriously, how can I take you seriously when you say that Griffin and Sanchez aren't serious competetors? That's absolute BS. I think most of you people have been consumed with the "amatuer" label placed on these TUF guys. Griffin and Sanchez ARE top notch fighters. Maybe not TOP TEN, but they are very good fighters, better than a lot of fighters were when they first came to the UFC. I'd say Sanchez is further up the ladder at 170 than Patric Cote was when he first came to the UFC. I'd say Griffin is better than most of the other guys that are brought to the UFC as well. So what they aren't at the top of the ladder either? They never are when they first step in! This hating on TUF is getting sick because most of you people think you know what you are talking about and you don't.

So what that their first match was't against, say, Matt Hughes, or Trigg, or Couture, give me a break! These guys have faced talented guys for their first match, and the next confirmed match for Griffin is Freeman, who is very well respected as a legit HVY, now turned light heavy weight. Are they TOP TEN yet? No, but they could be, especially Koschek (though I hate to admit it).

I understand the fact that they (UFC) are dropping top fighters because they either lost a match or two, or because they aren't exciting enough to draw more ppv buys, which sucks but it's necessary. You call yourself a true fan but I don't think you are. Otherwise you would realize that this is necessary for MMA to grow. You are probably among the same crowd that complains about fighters salaries, about UFC not getting the best in the world like Pride, etc, but then when it comes to making a few sacrifices to make MMA more of a mainstream sport in the USA, you complain about the necessary adjustments. Once UFC is mainstream, and they have all the money the need to pay these fighters, and to recruit the best fighers, you will see them all. Otherwise, if we show every Matt Lindland out there, boring the general populace, then MMA will not get enough draw to be mainstream, UFC will always underpay fighters, and we will never get the best in the world. Quit bitching for five minutes and look at the bigger picture.

[HaphaZZard]

TUF is like a freebie.. it's a tool, it's a commercial, it's bait.. TUF gets you interested in MMA, you watch the ultimate KO's show, you watch unleashed, you watch UFC on FSN, PRIDE on FSN, you go rent a few dvd's, maybe buy one.. you really start getting in to it.. so you decide to order a ppv, you love the feeling of actually seeing an event live as it happened.. not one that happened 9 months or 2 years ago.. you actually saw someone get KO'd in real time.. and that's how it goes.

the UFC isnt going to show an "ultimate submissions" or "ultimate decisions" on FSN or spiketv.. they're going to give the people what they want, bloody KO's.. that's what hooks people.. once you get them hooked, they appreciate MMA more, they understand that the ground game is a huge part of the sport.. because "if you cant fight on the ground, you cant fight" - pat smith.. i think he said that in ufc 3..

check out the UFC since TUF 1;

ufc 52: 2 decisions, 5 submissions, 1 KO
ufc 53: 1 decision, 2 submissions, 5 KO's
UFN: 3 decisions, 2 submissions, 3 KO's
ufc 54: 2 decisions, 3 submissions, 3 KO's

that totals 8 decisions, 12 submissions, & 12 KO's.

4 previous events prior to TUF 1:

ufc 51: 2 decisions, 2 submissions, 5 KO's
ufc 50: 1 decision, 4 submissions, 2 KO's
ufc 49: 1 decision, 2 submissions, 5 KO's
ufc 48: 3 decisions, 2 submissions, 3 KO's

that totals 7 decisions, 10 submissions, 15 KO's.


as you can see, there isnt a significant amount of difference, if anything the trend towards decisions & submissions is actually increasing, and KO numbers are dropping.. check out the st-pierre, couture, & sanchez fight, those were all ground victories.

the ground game isnt dying, people just think it is.. sure dana is an asshole, sure these TUF guys should be getting all the credit they deserve, but the game isnt changing..

[Kimura Breath]

Originally Posted by bjornturock

TUF is like a freebie.. it's a tool, it's a commercial, it's bait.. TUF gets you interested in MMA, you watch the ultimate KO's show, you watch unleashed, you watch UFC on FSN, PRIDE on FSN, you go rent a few dvd's, maybe buy one.. you really start getting in to it.. so you decide to order a ppv, you love the feeling of actually seeing an event live as it happened.. not one that happened 9 months or 2 years ago.. you actually saw someone get KO'd in real time.. and that's how it goes.

the UFC isnt going to show an "ultimate submissions" or "ultimate decisions" on FSN or spiketv.. they're going to give the people what they want, bloody KO's.. that's what hooks people.. once you get them hooked, they appreciate MMA more, they understand that the ground game is a huge part of the sport.. because "if you cant fight on the ground, you cant fight" - pat smith.. i think he said that in ufc 3..

check out the UFC since TUF 1;

ufc 52: 2 decisions, 5 submissions, 1 KO
ufc 53: 1 decision, 2 submissions, 5 KO's
UFN: 3 decisions, 2 submissions, 3 KO's
ufc 54: 2 decisions, 3 submissions, 3 KO's

that totals 8 decisions, 12 submissions, & 12 KO's.

4 previous events prior to TUF 1:

ufc 51: 2 decisions, 2 submissions, 5 KO's
ufc 50: 1 decision, 4 submissions, 2 KO's
ufc 49: 1 decision, 2 submissions, 5 KO's
ufc 48: 3 decisions, 2 submissions, 3 KO's

that totals 7 decisions, 10 submissions, 15 KO's.


as you can see, there isnt a significant amount of difference, if anything the trend towards decisions & submissions is actually increasing, and KO numbers are dropping.. check out the st-pierre, couture, & sanchez fight, those were all ground victories.

the ground game isnt dying, people just think it is.. sure dana is an asshole, sure these TUF guys should be getting all the credit they deserve, but the game isnt changing..

Way to run the numbers. Numbers talk. And they're hard to argue with.
Sweet post, dude.

TUF is doing what its supposed to... bring people into the game. The itch everyone has in their ass right now is that those folks haven't been "educated" about the UFC and fighting techniques... the "noobs" of today are the millions of PPV-buyers of tomorrow that finally help fighters earn what they're worth.

[Commissar]

Originally Posted by Zeke's Chaingun

Seriously, how can I take you seriously when you say that Griffin and Sanchez aren't serious competetors? That's absolute BS.

They aren't top contenders. You admitted that they are not top 10. They might be, but they're discarding proven top fighters for unproven ones.

Originally Posted by Zeke's Chaingun

This hating on TUF is getting sick because most of you people think you know what you are talking about and you don't.

I'm not hating on TUF. I'm bringing up facts. Sorry, but I'm not the dillusional one here.

Originally Posted by Zeke's Chaingun

So what that their first match was't against, say, Matt Hughes, or Trigg, or Couture, give me a break! These guys have faced talented guys for their first match, and the next confirmed match for Griffin is Freeman, who is very well respected as a legit HVY, now turned light heavy weight. Are they TOP TEN yet? No, but they could be, especially Koschek (though I hate to admit it).

I'm not disputing that they may potentially become top 10, because yes, they might. But right now, they are not. Period. They have not beaten top competition. It doesn't matter how good they may be, they have not beaten the correct competition to be considered top 10.

Originally Posted by Zeke's Chaingun

I understand the fact that they (UFC) are dropping top fighters because they either lost a match or two, or because they aren't exciting enough to draw more ppv buys, which sucks but it's necessary.

It isn't necessary. The UFC is promoting something that I don't believe is MMA. They're moving away from what MMA is supposed to be, to what uneducated fans want it to be.

Originally Posted by Zeke's Chaingun

You call yourself a true fan but I don't think you are. Otherwise you would realize that this is necessary for MMA to grow.

... In this conversation, I am the true fan. I'm the one who appreciates pure MMA. I'm the one who would prefer the best champion, as opposed to the more entertaining one. I want Rich Franklin to prove he's the best middleweight, instead of having the one guy who deserves the shot being released. All fighters lose, so why was Ivan Salaverry released while Randy Couture was not? Salaverry is a talented up and comer, and he fought one bad fight. No base to rid of him.

Originally Posted by Zeke's Chaingun

You are probably among the same crowd that complains about fighters salaries, about UFC not getting the best in the world like Pride, etc, but then when it comes to making a few sacrifices to make MMA more of a mainstream sport in the USA, you complain about the necessary adjustments.

No. I believe that the UFC should promote true MMA like they used to, instead of catering to a fanbase that wants blood and knockouts. Why do we want MMA in the mainstream when we're denied the top fighters? I would rather watch an underground, elitist MMA event on PPV than I would a popular, UFC event with fake champions.

Am I calling Rich Franklin a fake champion? Well, I would certainly like him to defend his belt against a worthy opponent, like Matt Lindland would have been.

Originally Posted by Zeke's Chaingun

Once UFC is mainstream, and they have all the money the need to pay these fighters, and to recruit the best fighers, you will see them all.

What if PRIDE decides to sign Lindland, Salaverry and Trigg? By the time the UFC is mainstream, they'll only be able to sign the fighters that PRIDE no longer wants. They'll be forced to make champions out of fighters that couldn't make the cut in PRIDE.

Originally Posted by Zeke's Chaingun

MMA will not get enough draw to be mainstream, UFC will always underpay fighters, and we will never get the best in the world.

We simply do not need MMA in the mainstream, if a one-dimensional fight like Griffin/Bonnar is already being considered the best UFC fight ever. That is not MMA. That was not a great fight. But if thats the kind of UFC you'd like, so be it. I want no part of it.

Originally Posted by Zeke's Chaingun

Quit bitching for five minutes and look at the bigger picture.

I have a better idea. How about you take Dana White's testicles out of your mouth and look at it a little bit more critically? A little bit more realistically? I know the future that you see from the UFC, but it won't happen. They'll continue to reward entertaining fighters and punish the 'boring' top fighters. They'll continue to protect their key champions, like Rich Franklin. I simply don't see much positivity from TUF due to the losses of top fighters.

But hey. Just my opinion.

[Recently_Reaped]

Originally Posted by bjornturock

TUF is like a freebie.. it's a tool, it's a commercial, it's bait.. TUF gets you interested in MMA, you watch the ultimate KO's show, you watch unleashed, you watch UFC on FSN, PRIDE on FSN, you go rent a few dvd's, maybe buy one.. you really start getting in to it.. so you decide to order a ppv, you love the feeling of actually seeing an event live as it happened.. not one that happened 9 months or 2 years ago.. you actually saw someone get KO'd in real time.. and that's how it goes.

This describes exactly how I got back into UFC and MMA.
I had rented a few of the earlier UFC's with Dan Severn and all in it and decided it was sloppy and chaotic, not really a sport.
TUF exposed me to how MMA had changed and how much better it had become.

Although I am a relative 'noob' to the sport, I have watched and read alot and being a reasonably intelligent person, I do appreciate the ground game, when the fighters are active and not laying and praying.
I think each newcomer to MMA will have to educate themselves to appreciate all aspects of the sport.
I mean if Zuffa turns the UFC into a standing only sport, it's watered down boxing and meh who wants that? The potential of the fight going to the ground is what adds that extra dimension to the fight and makes it better than boxing for me.

As for the extra exposure TUF gives the sport, another positive aspect is that as more people see it, more people will start to train to become MMA and UFC fighters and the quality of atheletes will improve and we'll have more great young fighters like a GSP.
That's what part of my hopes are for TUF, to get more future fighters interested in the sport.

great thread btw.

[GlassJoe42]

Well, I recently discovered this forum, and this is my first post, so why not jump in the deep end. I think TUF is good for MMA in the States. It's obviously good for UFC, but I do not think those go hand in hand. TUF will likely make Spike a huge hit (much like The WPT did for the Travel Channel, as I think Spike is hitching it's wagon to the UFC...which I think is great).

As for me, I saw Royce speaking about UFC years ago (just before UFC 3) on a daytime talk show. They showed a couple of vicious knock outs, a couple of submissions, asked if it was too brutal, so I was hooked.

Well, I probably did the next 5 or 6 UFC PPVs (rented the first two first) and the last PPV I had (before the one last week) was the one where Marco Ruas ended up beating the "Polar Bear" (Varlens, I think). It was TUF 1 that got me back into the UFC full throttle. I had seen some stuff here and there, saw a Tito fight, a couple of Abbott fights, et cetera, but it wasn't until TUF that my interest really got (re)piqued. I love that they're showing some past UFC fights on Fox Sports Net and Spike, and I'm currently renting the old UFCs one by one.

Back to the subject, I appreciated the ground game from the beginning and thought Royce was a beast, especially since he was outweighed always, sometimes by a good deal. How can you not respect a discipline (any of the grapplings, really) when a guy with Royce's body frame can handle Kimo, Severn, and the like?

While I agree that a large part of the audience appreciates the stand-up game waaaay more than the grappling (and, hence, UFC will likely promote it more and push those types of fighters), I also think perhaps many fighters may work on that part of the game precisely because of the fan fare and, more importantly, the marketability that will come with it.

Anyway, long story short, I think TUF and UFC can only help MMA. Why? Because people like me (getting back into it) and others new to MMA will also wonder what else is out there, who else is out there, and are these guys really the best. Then they'll come across pride. They'll see the replay (like I did this week) of Rampage beating Chuck at his own game (though I think Chuck may well win a rematch as he seems to make very nice adjustments...plus he's learned he doesn't have to go forward, the other fighter will come to him, he can counter and defend the take down, and it hardly seems anyone notices he just isn't being that aggressive until he stuns a guy...but I digress).

So I think the fan that really wants to get to the bottom of MMA, the disciplines, who's the best will research enough to force the UFC to try to have the best fighters in their shows. The public, while perhaps blood thirsty or knockout drunk, also wants to see the best fighters (or will over time). Sorry about the long first post. I've got more to say, but I'd better shut it down right now if I want anyone to get through this thing.

BTW, if you're still with me, I'm considering getting the Pride PPV tomorrow night. I'd imagine it's a must see (seeing as how it's $5 cheaper and "may" have better fighters fighting?), in the forums' general opinion?

[mannywankenobi]

Here's the truth. Despite all the things hardcore fans may not like about TUF and the UFC in general, they still watch. So no the UFC is not losing it's hardcore fans. They will watch and criticize. But they will still watch.

[anthony27]

Welcome back Glassjoe42. I share a similar experience being here during the first UFC and then eventually sort of forgetting about it. But TUF 1 brought me back full swing. Even before that i was watching some pride events at some MMA gatherings but till TUF 1 then actually finding sherdog it really helped me to keep track of what's going on. Do research discuss and everything. So i know TUF is a very good thing for MMA.

The basic debate is this:

Arguement A:

Ufc doesn't have the money to pay top talent right now.

UFC is being rewarded for savvy marketing and not just best fighter vs. best fighter.

it's finding success in doing this.

It will continue doing this if it is successfull.

so

There will be no more best fighter vs. best fighter.

and true fans want to see best fighter's competing against each other.

therefore

true fans will not be happy with the level of competetion in the ufc

Arguement B

Ufc doesn't have the money to draw top talent right now.

UFC is being rewarded for savvy marketing and not just best fighter vs. best fighter.

it's finding success in doing this.

This will continue in building a fanbase for the sport until it reaches a high support level. (becomming mainstream)

Once it is mainstream the money and endorsements will be finicing to draw better talent.

Once UFC is mainstream there will be an overall widespread appreciation and demand for better talent.

The UFC must then deliver the better talent.

Since it has the money to do so it will certainly draw that talent.

Better pay and better talent to the UFC.

and true fans want to see best fighter's competing against each other.

This is good for the ufc.

I may have missed a couple of points but that's basicly it. I am not happy with certain match-ups and certain "fighters" becomming instant MMA stars but I take it with a grain of salt. I take it as a serious step in the right direction. True MMA fans can appreciate this changeover while being concerned that mma is not going in the right direction at least in the US but hey there's still pride and you just got to have a little faith when it comes to the ufc.

When the UFC started it was a brilliant marketing tool as well that did it. The gracies purposely picked royce gracie being so scrawny and only 170 lbs instead of rickson to step in and fight since the size difference was so much more apparent and even that much more intriquing. They wanted to show how bad ass BJJ was by putting in a guy who would be an unlikely champion against these giants. So, currently there is more marketing going on and I believe the ufc is back on the right track for reviving this sport in the US. i'm not worried about the sport becomming a bunch of fluff. You just gotta have faith and hold on for the ride.

Don't worry about the TUF guys either, most of them may just be sheep waiting to be slaughtered. These TUF heros to the new fans will be slain by unknown warriors with unrivalaled skill, speed and ferocity. Their blood will spawn a new kind of fan for a new breed of warriors. These unknown warriors are out there and are quietly preparing to do battle.

[DimmuSakuraba]

I think the real question is, why is this a sticky?

[Outlaw Steakhouse]

on outlawsteakhouse.com, email customer service to find out how to chat with Forrest and Chuck on Wednesday. No purchase required for sherdog forum members.