[Old Glory]

I know you all hang around in here, so I wanted to post this here to get more responses. Anyways, a few questions about law school apps and the lsat. Right now, I'm an alternate for some med schools, so I'm starting (late) to plan for next year. I'm re-applying to med schools just in case, and I'm also thinking about applying to law school as a backup plan.

First off, would I be able to take the LSAT in Sept. and still apply for Fall 2007? I see things in terms of med school applications, and I know that if I were to take the April 2007 MCAT, it wouldn't be counted until the 2008 applications. Does it work the same way for law schools....could I start getting applications in order and apply for 2007 class when my scores are returned after the September LSAT?

Secondly, how much studying is required for the LSAT? The MCAT was a bitch in terms of preparation....it pretty much took up my entire summer with all the memorization required. I want to get ready and take it seriously; but if I don't get into med school, I'll be working full-time and won't be able to put in that kind of effort. How long (hrs/day, days/week, weeks/months, etc) did you spend getting ready?

Also, I can't afford to take Kaplan or Princeton, so what did those of you who didn't drop a grand on preparation do to get ready?

Lastly, have any of you taken both the LSAT and MCAT? I was curious how the Verbal for the MCAT translated over to the LSAT.

I appreciate any help that I get....I know that I don't have my shit together, but this is something I recently decided. I'm sort of in panic mode with applications right now, and I haven't got the slightest clue how law school applications work. Thanks.

[Zankou]

I think there's only a few lawyers on these boards, so I'll try to answer your questions (I graduated law school in 1999).

I recall taking the LSAT in October or so, so I don't think September is too late. I think the cutoff for applications is somewhere around the end of December.

Not much studying is required unless you're a dolt, in which case you probably shouldn't be applying. The LSAT is pretty straightforward. You will want to practice the "logical games" sections under timed pressure just to get used to it. But it's not like there's much material to memorize. In fact I took a practice LSAT, without having any idea what the test was like and without even having taken a standardized test for years, and ended up scoring higher than my final actual score, which I got after about a month of studying.

I was poor as could possibly be, so Kaplan/PR was out for me. I spent like $12 buying one of those LSAT practice books, and it worked perfectly fine. I'd recommend that route for those with the ghetto finances.

G'luck.

[Old Glory]

Originally Posted by Zankou

I think there's only a few lawyers on these boards, so I'll try to answer your questions (I graduated law school in 1999).

I recall taking the LSAT in October or so, so I don't think September is too late. I think the cutoff for applications is somewhere around the end of December.

Not much studying is required unless you're a dolt, in which case you probably shouldn't be applying. The LSAT is pretty straightforward. You will want to practice the "logical games" sections under timed pressure just to get used to it. But it's not like there's much material to memorize. In fact I took a practice LSAT, without having any idea what the test was like and without even having taken a standardized test for years, and ended up scoring higher than my final actual score, which I got after about a month of studying.

I was poor as could possibly be, so Kaplan/PR was out for me. I spent like $12 buying one of those LSAT practice books, and it worked perfectly fine. I'd recommend that route for those with the ghetto finances.

G'luck.

Thanks. My big problem is that I've got ad/hd and reading discrepancies (neither of which, along with numerous medical documentations from doctors and university disability services, would grant me extended time on the MCAT); so standardized tests are a pain for me.....reading in particular. Verbal was my hardest section on the MCAT, which is why I'm a tad hesitant about the LSAT, since, to my knowledge, there are no facts to memorize. I figure I'll start getting applications and essays after I take care of my AMCAS, and start getting applications in order.

Also, would you think that schools take majors into account as opposed to a strict GPA? I mean, I finished college with a 3.6 after a bad first year, but I was also majoring in Biological Sciences and minoring in Chemistry and Political Science. Do you think that a 3.6 in a really tough field would stack up well against.....say....a 3.8-3.9 from a General Education degree?

[KingSnake]

Originally Posted by Old Glory

Thanks. My big problem is that I've got ad/hd and reading discrepancies (neither of which, along with numerous medical documentations from doctors and university disability services, would grant me extended time on the MCAT); so standardized tests are a pain for me.....reading in particular. Verbal was my hardest section on the MCAT, which is why I'm a tad hesitant about the LSAT, since, to my knowledge, there are no facts to memorize. I figure I'll start getting applications and essays after I take care of my AMCAS, and start getting applications in order.

Also, would you think that schools take majors into account as opposed to a strict GPA? I mean, I finished college with a 3.6 after a bad first year, but I was also majoring in Biological Sciences and minoring in Chemistry and Political Science. Do you think that a 3.6 in a really tough field would stack up well against.....say....a 3.8-3.9 from a General Education degree?

Where did you go to undergrad? Most admissions places realize fields like chem have lower gpa's than soc. majors. If you are good at puzzles you'll be fine on the LSAT.

My only question is why do you want to go to lawschool? I would really think about that because it is alot of effort and $ to waste. I'd say apply but think about it before you decide to go.

[Old Glory]

Originally Posted by KingSnake

Where did you go to undergrad? Most admissions places realize fields like chem have lower gpa's than soc. majors. If you are good at puzzles you'll be fine on the LSAT.

LSU....decent at puzzles....dirt shitty at rushing though tests. I mean, I did well enough on the MCAT to land myself as an alternate at LSU and Tulane's med schools, but I think my scores on that are a bit below the average acceptance scores.....extracurriculars, volunteer, and work got me to where I am. Does that stuff count for much on law school apps?

My only question is why do you want to go to lawschool? I would really think about that because it is alot of effort and $ to waste. I'd say apply but think about it before you decide to go

First off, my B.S in biological sciences isn't good for shit unless I get a higher degree, and teaching and lower level research jobs aren't for me. So I'm looking at dropping into heavy debt no matter where I decide to go from here....PHD programs, med school, law school, etc. Money isn't my main concern (although it probably will be when I have to start paying it back).

I've always been interested in politics and several areas of law, it's just that medicine was always my number one goal. I'd love to get involved in the prosecution aspect of criminal law. Frivelous lawsuits, in particular malpractice suits, piss me off to no end, and getting involved with defense work would also give me a chance to work hand in hand with a field that really interests me. Also, as a former teacher, there's also education law, which is another appealing option.

I guess, to answer your question simply, in any of those three fields, I can see myself enjoying my work. I know it takes dedication, but I find I'm very motivated to causes that I care about.

[Zankou]

Originally Posted by Old Glory

Thanks. My big problem is that I've got ad/hd and reading discrepancies (neither of which, along with numerous medical documentations from doctors and university disability services, would grant me extended time on the MCAT); so standardized tests are a pain for me.....reading in particular. Verbal was my hardest section on the MCAT, which is why I'm a tad hesitant about the LSAT, since, to my knowledge, there are no facts to memorize. I figure I'll start getting applications and essays after I take care of my AMCAS, and start getting applications in order.

Also, would you think that schools take majors into account as opposed to a strict GPA? I mean, I finished college with a 3.6 after a bad first year, but I was also majoring in Biological Sciences and minoring in Chemistry and Political Science. Do you think that a 3.6 in a really tough field would stack up well against.....say....a 3.8-3.9 from a General Education degree?

Man, not to be a downer but why would you want to be a lawyer if you have reading problems? You will need to read ungodly quantities of complex material at a terribly fast pace -- that will be necessary for your entire professional career.

I guess you could be a low-end criminal lawyer, but that's about the only kind I can think of that doesn't do much reading. To do defense work at a major firm, you need to read effortlessly for 12 hours in a row, things like that.

If you have problems reading fast and analyzing written material quickly, the LSAT is going to be a real bummer for you. That's basically all it is, that and logical games.

Schools will take majors into account at some level, but I think many of them operate with hard GPA cutoffs for each undergrad school, as do law firms btw. I.e., you gotta get over the first hurdle to get your foot in the door.

[KingSnake]

Originally Posted by Zankou

Man, not to be a downer but why would you want to be a lawyer if you have reading problems? You will need to read ungodly quantities of complex material at a terribly fast pace -- that will be necessary for your entire professional career.

If you have problems reading fast and analyzing written material quickly, the LSAT is going to be a real bummer for you. That's basically all it is, that and logical games.

Schools will take majors into account at some level, but I think many of them operate with hard GPA cutoffs for each undergrad school, as do law firms btw. I.e., you gotta get over the first hurdle to get your foot in the door.

True, but the best anti-trust lawyer in the country, David Boies AKA the "tiger woods of the legal profesion", is dyslexic.

[Old Glory]

Originally Posted by Zankou

Man, not to be a downer but why would you want to be a lawyer if you have reading problems? You will need to read ungodly quantities of complex material at a terribly fast pace -- that will be necessary for your entire professional career.

I didn't want to get into too much details on it, but here's the deal. I have always had serious attention problems, which through hard work on my own (with the help of meds along the way) I'm really starting to work my way through. The issue was that throughout high school and grammar school, I never read books. I always tried, but I could never get myself through more than a few pages (after an hour or so of trying....literally). Cliff's and Spark Notes got me my grades. Needless to say though, my reading speed and comprehension suffered dramatically over the years, and it really hurt me in my first year of college when the loads got tougher. Since I started on medication, I really buckled down and tried to get myself back to a decent level. I've built up my own little library of books, read whatever I could get my hands on, and I'm starting to feel comfortable with my reading. The problem is....while I don't really have problems with subjects that interest me, I have problems with obscure and abstract passages about utter bullshit and answering questions designed to trick the hell out of the test taker.

Now, I don't really have a problem sitting down and focusing for hours on end anymore (as I did with my first MCAT back in 2003 when I applied for the extended time) when dealing with appropriate subject matter. I'm not worried about the profession....I find myself to be extremely dedicated and efficient when I'm behind a cause. Stuff like this is hard to really explain....it's jsut something I go through I guess. I've sort of built up a my reading skills in specific areas, if that makes any sense. I never gave much attention to philosophy, classical music, art, etc, so when I get passages like that on a standardized test, it's almost like I go back to square 1. I always do fine on historical passages, political passages, etc.

guess you could be a low-end criminal lawyer, but that's about the only kind I can think of that doesn't do much reading. To do defense work at a major firm, you need to read effortlessly for 12 hours in a row, things like that.

If you have problems reading fast and analyzing written material quickly, the LSAT is going to be a real bummer for you. That's basically all it is, that and logical games.

Schools will take majors into account at some level, but I think many of them operate with hard GPA cutoffs for each undergrad school, as do law firms btw. I.e., you gotta get over the first hurdle to get your foot in the door.

Again, I really feel that if I'm practicing the kind of law that I really want to do (law school will help me decide that), I'll be able to handle the work.

As for the LSAT being a bummer....I scored decently on the MCAT, so I'm not worried about bottoming out. I just want to do well enough to get in, and I was a bit worried that I might not have enough time to prep. I find that my GPA is solid for the Louisiana schools, so I'll probably need a 153 (Loyola)-163 (Tulane) to be competitive for the schools. I'd really like to hear from someone that tool both, just to compare the MCAT Verbal to the LSAT Reading.....but not too many people have gone down both paths.

[Zankou]

I used to work for a partner, a patent lawyer, who was dyslexic. He was an excellent lawyer. It can be done, but it generally requires a LOT more work and tenacity. Why subject yourself to that?

But if you are determined, as it sounds like you may be, those LSAT ranges you are talking about -- 150-160 -- are not that hard to hit. Above 165, it starts to get hard slogging.

[Old Glory]

Originally Posted by Zankou

I used to work for a partner, a patent lawyer, who was dyslexic. He was an excellent lawyer. It can be done, but it generally requires a LOT more work and tenacity. Why subject yourself to that?

I'd rather work my ass off doing something that I enjoy for a cause that means something to me than dick around all day doing something I could care less about. I want my hard work to mean something to myself, and hopefully to others as well.

But if you are determined, as it sounds like you may be, those LSAT ranges you are talking about -- 150-160 -- are not that hard to hit. Above 165, it starts to get hard slogging

How do those register on the national average? Average acceptances?