Scientology: what is it?

[chriskiss]

Originally Posted by DrSatanDracula

Chriskiss:

Source.



There is fundamentally no difference between a cult and a religion. The difference is imposed by a social order alone.

There is a fundamental difference. A religion does not demand financial compensation for courses only voluntary donations. A religion will let you leave without fear of reprisal. This is not true for scientology.

Source of cost accusation: "Scientology Course Order form" Operation Clambake present: Prices up to OT8 and beyond

Cost of membership: Operation Clambake presents: The Cost of Scientology

Source for reprisals against ex-members: Google

[Darwinist]

These are all quotes taken for documents written by Hubbard, distributed by the CoS to lower-ranking members as memos and standing orders, and actually COPYRIGHTED(just so if you think they are fake, the CoS has sued people more than once for distributing these words, claiming that they are "trade secrets".

CO PL 15 Aug 1960, "Department of Governmental Affairs"

In the face of danger from government or courts, there are only two errors one can make: (a) do nothing and (b) defend. The right things to do with any threat are to (1) find out if we want to play the offered game or not (2) if not, to derail the offered game with a feint or attack upon the most vulnerable point which can be disclosed in the enemy ranks (3) make enough threat or clamor to cause the enemy to quail (4) don't try to get any money out of it (5) make every attack by us also sell Scientology and (6) win. If attacked on some vulnerable point by anyone or anything or any organization, always find or manufacture enough threat against them to cause them to sue for peace. Peace is bought with an exchange of advantage, so make the advantage and then settle. Don't ever defend. Always attack. Don't ever do nothing. Unexpected attacks in the rear of the enemy's front ranks work best.
...
The goal of the department is to bring the government and hostile philosophies or societies into a state of complete compliance with the goals of Scientology. This is done by high-level ability to control and in its absence by low-level ability to overwhelm. Introvert such agencies. Control such agencies. Scientology is the only game on Earth where everybody wins.

HCO PL 7 Feb 1965, reissued 27 Aug 1980, corrected and reissued 12 Oct 1985, "Keeping Scientology Working Series 1"

And I don't see that popular measures, self-abnegation and democracy have done anything for Man but push him further into the mud. Currently, popularity endorses degraded novels, self-abnegation has filled the Southeast Asian jungles with stone idols and corpses, and democracy has given us inflation and income tax.

HCO PL 13 Feb 1965, "Politics"

"Watching the US and Australia fight Scientology with blind fury while supporting oppressive mental and religious practices proves that democracy, applied to and used by aberrated people, is far from an ideal activity and is only aberrated democracy.
...
"Therefore a democracy is a collective-think of reactive banks. Popular opinion is bank opinion.
"Any human group is likely to elect only those who kill them. That's concluded from actual 1950 experiments."

HCO PL 17 Mar 1965

"The reason a democracy or any wide open group caves in lies in its extending its privileges of membership to those who seek to destroy it."

HCO PL 4 Jan 1966, "LRH Relationships to Orgs"

"Somebody some day will say 'this is illegal'. By then be sure the orgs say what is legal or not." (Darwinist note: this is Hubbard basically promising his disciples that it's OK to break the law to usher in a society of Scientology, because their law is above all else)

HCO PL 2 Nov 1970, "The Theory of Scientology Organizations"

"A totally democratic organization has a bad name in Dianetics and Scientology despite all this talk of agreement. I has been found by actual experiment (LA 1950) that groups of people called on to select a leader from among them by nomination and vote routinely select only those who would kill them. They select the talkers of big deeds and ignore the doers. They seem to select unerringly the men of average skill. That is never good enough in a leader and the people suffer from his lack of understanding. If you ever have occasion to elect a leader for your group, don't be "democratic" about it."
...
"This is a government circa mid-20th century. Its highest skill is murder which in its profundity it makes legal.
...
Democracies _hate_ brains and skill. Don't get in that rut. In the US War Between the States, militia companies elected their officers with great lack of success in battle. They finally learned after tens of thousands of casualties that it was skill not popularity that counted. Why be a casualty--learn first. Democracy is only possible in a nation of Clears--and even they can make mistakes. When the majority rules, the minority suffers. The best are always a minority."

"Dianetics: The Mental Science of Modern Health"

"Perhaps at some distant date only the unaberrated person will be granted civil rights under the law. Perhaps the goal will be reached at some future time when only the unaberrated person can attain to and benefit from citizenship. These are desirable goals and would produce a marked increase in the survival ability and happiness of man."

"Science of Survival"

"The only answers would seem to be the permanent quarantine of such ['1.1, or covertly hostile, low-toned'] persons from society to avoid the contagion of their insanities and the general turbulence which they bring into any order, thus forcing it lower on the scale, or processing such person until they have attained a level on the tone scale which gives them value.

In any event, any person from 2.0 down(note: anyone openly critical of Scientology falls into this category!!!) on the tone scale should not have, in any thinking society, any civil rights of any kind, because by abusing those rights he brings into being arduous and strenuous laws which are oppressive to those who need no such restraints."

...

"There are only two answers for the handling of people from 2.0 down on the tone scale, neither one of which has anything to do with reasoning with them or listening to their justification of their acts. The first is to raise them on the tone scale by un-enturbulating some of their theta by any one of the three valid processes. The other is to dispose of them quietly and without sorrow."

...

"The sudden and abrupt deletion of all individuals occupying the lower bands of the tone scale from the social order would result in an almost instant rise in the cultural tone and would interrupt the dwindling spiral into which any society may have entered. It is not necessary to produce a world of clears in order to have a reasonable and worthwhile social order; it is only necessary to delete those individuals who range from 2.0 down, either by processing them enough to get their tone level above the 2.0 line(edit: this means coerced conversion to Scientology) - a task which, indeed, is not very great, since the amount of processing in many cases might be under fifty hours, although it might also in others be in excess of two hundred - or simply quarantining them from the society(edit: Can you say CONCENTRATION CAMP???).

A Venezuelan dictator once decided to stop leprosy. He saw that most lepers in his country were also beggars. By the simple expedient of collecting and destroying all the beggars in Venezuela an end was put to leprosy in that country."(WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK??? AND YOU DARE TO CALL THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT NAZIS FOR NOT ALLOWING YOU TO WORK TOWARDS FULFILLING THIS PSYCHO'S VISION OF A PERFECT WORLD,STRAIGHT OUT OF THE NAZI EUGENICS PLAYBOOK???)

This is just a small sampling of Hubbard's hundreds of thousands of words of sheer and utter facist lunacy, written as memos to his cronies. It's all out there, confirmed legit for anyone to read.

Hubbard on democracy and ethics

And to hear what judges and other figures of the judiciary and law enforcement around the world have to say about Hubbard's lemmings, go here: Operation Clambake presents: Quotes about Scientology

[chriskiss]

More proof:

L. Ron's son:
Documenting fair game policy: 4:45 minutes into Part 1

Part 1:YouTube - Son of L. Ron Hubbard Outs His Father as Fraud part 1
Part 2: YouTube - Son of L. Ron Hubbard Outs His Father as Fraud part 2

[chriskiss]

Originally Posted by Darwinist

These are all quotes taken for documents written by Hubbard, distributed by the CoS to lower-ranking members as memos and standing orders, and actually COPYRIGHTED(just so if you think they are fake, the CoS has sued people more than once for distributing these words, claiming that they are "trade secrets".


This is just a small sampling of Hubbard's hundreds of thousands of words of sheer and utter facist lunacy, written as memos to his cronies. It's all out there, confirmed legit for anyone to read.

HAHA nice! *high fives*

[DrSatanDracula]

Chriskiss:

There is a fundamental difference. A religion does not demand financial compensation for courses only voluntary donations. A religion will let you leave without fear of reprisal. This is not true for scientology.

Actually, the idea of tithing was held to be mandatory in Christianity until recently. It is also incumbent upon all Moslems to tithe by religious law - it is one of the five pillars of Islam. I believe tithing is found amongst Judaism as an obligatory element of religion.

As to reprisals, you do realize that several religions condemn one to hellfire for rejecting their beliefs, yes?

Source of cost accusation: "Scientology Course Order form" Operation Clambake present: Prices up to OT8 and beyond

Cost of membership: Operation Clambake presents: The Cost of Scientology

Why should I believe this source? It is opposed to Scientology. Has the Church ever released official documents that back up the information in these reports?

Source for reprisals against ex-members: Google

There are many others who have had no such reprisals. What of them?

[Chthon]

Scientology is a dangerous cult which has stayed afloat due to a cutthroat legal team and shrewd leadership. Germany is doing the right thing.

Did anybody post that YTMND page with the creepy music?

[DrSatanDracula]

Darwinist:

Thanks for the lengthy p ost.

I ask you this: How is this to be held as objectionable when any political movement will seek the concrete manifestation of its aims? The Republican and Democratic parties stated goals are the take over of the government under their principles. Conservative and Labour policy in the UK is the same. Scientology has a political movement that comes from its principles. How is this objectionable?

I would also make the embarrassing point that the relation of anti-Scientologists to Radical Atheist discredits many anti-Scientologist positions. The vitriol against religious groups expressed in Radical Atheist literature is virtually indistinguishable from Hubbard's anti-anti-Scientologist points here. Of course, one can be an anti-scientologist and not part of Radical Atheism. One might adopt a Christian perspective, whose goals have always been the take over of government, too...

[axecutioner]

Originally Posted by bulldogs85

But Tom Cruise said if you pass a wreck on a highway, you must stop because as a scientologist, you know you are the ONLY person who can truly help. Forget the EMS/Fire/Police/Tow Truck/Insurance/Pastor/Mechanic types, ONLY Tom Cruise and scientologists can help.

Well someone needs to exorcise the thetans from that person's body before they die.

[Darwinist]

Originally Posted by DrSatanDracula

Darwinist:

Thanks for the lengthy p ost.

I ask you this: How is this to be held as objectionable when any political movement will seek the concrete manifestation of its aims? The Republican and Democratic parties stated goals are the take over of the government under their principles. Conservative and Labour policy in the UK is the same. Scientology has a political movement that comes from its principles. How is this objectionable?

If you feel that allowing a group whose ultimate aim is the abolishment or assimilation of all government agencies, all political parties, cessation of election and the rule of law(apart from that meted out by the group itself) to exist in your society, then that's fine by me.

My point is that there is ample evidence in Hubbard's own writings of what he sees as "the goal" for Scientology, and that goal is in direct violation of the German Constitution. It's as clear as day that that is the case. It's not like the Germans are making this shit up...

Now if you have a problem with that, you can petition the German people to change their constition, but as it stands today they not only have the right, but also the duty to ban Scientology.

Remember, we are talking Germany here. Not the US. Your constitution does not apply.

You are talking about right and wrong from an american perspective.

Originally Posted by DrSatanDracula

I would also make the embarrassing point that the relation of anti-Scientologists to Radical Atheist discredits many anti-Scientologist positions. The vitriol against religious groups expressed in Radical Atheist literature is virtually indistinguishable from Hubbard's anti-anti-Scientologist points here. Of course, one can be an anti-scientologist and not part of Radical Atheism. One might adopt a Christian perspective, whose goals have always been the take over of government, too...

I have absolutely no idea whatsoever where you get this vibe from. My(and most other critics) opposition to Scientology has nothing to do with faith or freedom to worship or live according to whatever philosophy you like. It has everything to do with their stated goal of creating a world where nothing exists which they do not control completely, and their utter visciousness in trying to grab as much temporal influence as humanly possible.

I can understand where you are coming from though. Many people who think that "Radical Atheists" are coming to take their bibles away in the near future tend to defend scientology in a knee-jerk fashion just because they say they "believe", and believers of all stripes need to stick together against the Angry Atheists Fascists.

Well let me tell you something. You are far more likely to be stripped of your right to worship by a government ruled by Scientology than secularism. After all, all the world's religions are just engrams, or fake memories implanted by aliens 75 million years ago, Jesus was a pedophile, and Mohammad was a merchant who made up all his visions to increase commerce in his home town(straight from Hubbard's mouth).

Hubbard on Jesus:

Note: the Church claims that the OT VIII documents are forgeries. This has for some time been the official CoS-statement; probably because OT8 includes some very strange theories about Jesus and many real churches were outraged because of it.

See for instance this quote from (Hubbard's?) OTVIII:

For those of you whose Christian toes I may have stepped on, let me take the opportunity to disabuse you of some lovely myths. For instance, the historic Jesus was not nearly the sainted figure has been made out to be. In addition to being a lover of young boys and men, he was given to uncontrollable bursts of temper and hatred that belied the general message of love, understanding and other typical Marcab PR. You have only to look at the history his teachings inspired to see where it all inevitably leads. It is historic fact and yet man still clings to the ideal, so deep and insidious is the biologic implanting.

It is a good joke that the Galactic Confederacy is associated with the Serpent in the Garden, the beast and other emissaries of the "Prince of Darkness". Yet in certain passages and esoteric interpretations of the Bible (much of which has been taken out and effectively suppressed for centuries) as well as the Cabbalah, the truth reveals itself quite nicely for the clever and the ungullible.

Because of this fragment OT8 has become known as the "Jesus is a pedophile"-OT. Until recently, CoS was adamant that OT8 was a forgery.

Until recently. When Arnaldo Lerma's house was raided by CoS, they took his computer. Under the writ of seizure, they were allowed only to identify files that were copyrighted by CoS / RTC. A CoS lawyer - Kendrick Moxon, expert attorney and a senior OT - was asked to supervise this, and guess what: he identified OT8 as an RTC copyright and therefore, as a church scripture.

[chriskiss]

Originally Posted by DrSatanDracula

Chriskiss:



Actually, the idea of tithing was held to be mandatory in Christianity until recently. It is also incumbent upon all Moslems to tithe by religious law - it is one of the five pillars of Islam. I believe tithing is found amongst Judaism as an obligatory element of religion.

As to reprisals, you do realize that several religions condemn one to hellfire for rejecting their beliefs, yes?




Why should I believe this source? It is opposed to Scientology. Has the Church ever released official documents that back up the information in these reports?



There are many others who have had no such reprisals. What of them?

In all cases of tithing in religions, you will not face punishment or be unable to further your religious studies for not paying anything. The suggestion of donation is not a requirement. If you were to go to a church, mosque, synagogue or any religious building and follow along, you would be fine. You could sit in on a sermon every week if you wanted to. You must pay to attend scientology teachings.

Condemning to hellfire is hardly a punishment for a non-believer. Now, having pamphlets spread across your neighbourhood stating that you are a child molester is another story.

If you don't buy the source, listen to the guy's child.