[ig1983]

Originally Posted by Bill Baker

HERE WAT MY RESPONSE WUD LOOK LIKE IF UR POST WAS EVEN RELEVANT TO THE CLAIM MADE (FOR WHICH I ASKED PROOF FOR):

"JEWS fled from everywhere cuz they got cheap land cmon now... who u kiddin?

by ur logic muslim countries treated jews a hell of a lot better than others:

Majority of jews coming from europe?? "

Really, so despite the narratives of hundreds of thousands of Jews that said they fled out of fear, and not out of economic impetus, we are supposed to take your word for it....

How ignorant you are of the travesty of Sephardic Jews. As if they Moroccan Jews left their hometowns in Casablanca and Rabat due to "cheap land". The Jews were well off in most Arab countries thanks to the protective colonial governments. They were also set up in make shift refugee camps in the desert for the first decades of the state. Your argument that they came for "cheap land" is quite baseless, especially taking into account that most lost all of their possesions in their exodus.

Your chart that you post is Fallacy: Red Herring

I never argued about the proportion of Jewish immigrants. As far as "my logic", Muslim countries did treat Jews better than European. Do you want a prize that they were only subjugated as dhimmis rather than in a Holocaust?

"and also by ur logic, israel dosnt treat arabs any better does it?

from a 58% MAJORITY being muslim to only a 16%???? ethnical cleansing either by mass emigration of arabs or mass immigration of violent israelis????


wat about the israelis who LEFT ISRAELI territory for illegal settlements in pali land???

they were either:

a) GREEDY opportunists who were tricked by the ISRAELi govt for cheap land (tel avivs just too darn expensive now)

or

b) theologically 'zionists' and believe its their god given land to gods chosen ppl

DID THEY "FLEE" as well???"

My logic shows that Jews treated teh Arabs much better. Hence why 33% of Arabs remained in Israel, and all the peaceful Druze remained in Israel. The peaceful Jews hardly had the chance in iraq, afghanistan, Yemen, morocco, libya, tunisia.

a) These greedy opportunists lost everything they had to flee. Here was a great narrative of an egyptian Jewish family that lost their wealth. They didn't exactly get "cheap land" from Israel. They became impoverished in Brooklyn afteralll.:
Amazon.com: The Man in the White Sharkskin Suit: My Family's Exodus from Old Cairo to the New World: Lucette Lagnado: Books

b)It was their human right to immigrate to a land where they would not be persecuted. Whether some combined religious zeal with this is irrelevant to their actual right to flee Arab persecution.

[Thaiboxer18]

Originally Posted by Bill Baker

ahhahahaheuaheuhaheahahahah

such a poor job using egypt as ur scape goat. i thought u wud learn once i PWND u by showing ISRAELS the reason behind egypts border security. ahhahahahahah and now ur trying again to use EGYPT?? LMAO



wat merit does this even have? LOL

ahahehauheauhueahea

wow, and this time u also blame hamas for 'occupying palis' ahhaha
who put hamas in power??? ISRAEL
who gets Egypt the foreign aid from US to tighten border security??? ISRAEL
who assasinated JFK??? IDK, look it up on Google
who influences Egypts border activity to break pali's legs??? ISRAEL
who build their homeland in pali land??? ISRAEL
who built a wall around the palis??? ISRAEL
who illegally expanded their land cuz of over imigration and greedy settlers??? ISRAEL
who continuously air strikes on pali civilians??? ISRAEL
who has over 200 jew-only settlements on pali land??? ISRAEL
who tolerates settler violence towards pali civilians??? ISRAEL
who has mandatory military service??? ISRAEL
who killed over 900 pali children since 2000??? ISRAEL
who has over 65 United Nations resolutions against them??? ISRAEL
who has over 10,000 pali prisoners and regularly uses violence and torture against them??? ISRAEL

u are hillarious tryna sound like u care bout Gazans. u don give a rats ass as long as ur god given land remains with gods chosen ppl by any means necessary.

Wow you are barely literate. Anyone who puts in faux laughter that much to make himself feel better is either 13 or retarded or both. The only pwning you have ever been involved in was when God pwnd your mother by making her give birth to such a stupid child.

As usual, your post is childish gibberish without any merit. Somehow, according to you, Israel put Hamas in power. That is funny, I thought that when the Palestinians voted for Hamas, they put Hamas in power. Silly me thinking that Arabs are capable of personal responsibility. Once you start going down a chain of attenuated events, you can blame anyone for anything, so let's focus on what actually happened, that being the Palestinian people electing a group that by its charter is committed to the destruction of Israel.

I see you are keeping with your theme of "Arabs are incapable of personal responsibility, any action that Arabs take is caused by Israel, those crafty Jews are to blame, they are always responsible" by saying that Israel is responsible for Egypt's decision to build a SEPARATION WALL from Gaza. In your feeble mind, Egypt is not autonomous, Egypt could not have any independent reason for wanting to avoid Hamas, and they are again simply weak-minded Arabs who have been manipulated against their will by the crafty Jews. Sure, Mubarak has taken very harsh steps to curb potential power of Islamist parties in Egypt, but that too is probably because teh Jews told him to. In fact, every time any Arab country takes any action that is not "pro-Palestinian," it is clearly caused by Israel.

Similarly, according to your weak logic, Egypt won't let Gazans cross in because of Israel. Sure, there is the fear that the Gazans could cause political turmoil or get the Egyptian masses riled up or smuggle weapons used to start a war that would have regionwide implications, but it is much easier to simply say that it is Israel's fault. The simpler the view, the better.

The rest of your "points" are almost too stupid to even respond to. LOL at Israel tolerating violence towards Palestinian civilians; pot, meet kettle. Hamas encourages suicide bombings and rocket attacks aimed at civilians; stop being such a fucking hypocrite. Should Israel have settlements in the WB? No, but the fact that they are Jewish only settlements has nothing to do with it. Jordan has a law that Jews cannot be citizens, Saudi Arabia won't allow Jews to even enter its country, and Jews were chased out of most of the region despite living there for thousands of years. Cry me a fucking river about Israel having Jewish only settlements. If the settlements were mixed between Jews and Palestinians, the latter would do everything possible to kill as many of the former as possible, but I guess that is ok with you. In your tiny brain, Israel should not be concerned about protecting its citizens, but should merely work to appease the Palestinians.

Before you whine about the number of civilians killed (and the term civilian is dubious from a Palestinian perspective anyways), look at the percentages of civilians killed vs terrorists/soldiers killed. You will find that Israel kills a much higher percentage of militants than vice versa. Before you complain about how many more civilians Israel has killed, you should actually think about how many attempts the righteous victims have made to kill Israeli civilians. They fire rockets and mortars into Israel damn near daily with the intent of killing civilians; the fact that their rockets don't always succeed doesn't negate their intention; if you can't understand that, you are beyond hope. There is a difference in morality between an army attacking a group of men firing rockets at civilians and killing the militants and accidentally a civilian/ a group of militants firing rockets with the express purpose to kill civilians.

Using UN resolutions to try to prove your point is silly, no surprise. How many Muslim countries are there? How many countries are there that fear international terrorism/need oil? The answer is many. If you want an idea of what goes on at the UN, I suggest you read a book called "The UN Gang" which will give you a better idea of what the UN is actually like. All you need to know about the neutrality of the UN is that Israel gets sanctioned more by that bastion of fairness than Rwanda or Sudan ever got while in the process of carrying out genocide.

As for having Palestinian prisoners, do you think that Israel should not jail people who are involved in plots to kill Israeli civilians? Are Palestinians automatically absolved from blame for their actions because they are righteous victims? Is a Palestinian who plans a bus bombing somehow beyond culpability?

As for Gazans, I do care about their future, because as long as they are unhappy, that is bad news for Israel. I don't see any viable answer to this problem as long as the Palestinian state is divided in half and Israel doesn't let the Palestinians cross between the two, which will probably continue for a long time. The best hope for peace is an immediate cease fire + an Israeli agreement to give back much of the land in the WB (it will keep the largest settlement blocs though and give land contiguous to the WB to the Palis to make up for it) + a Pali declaration recognizing Israel as a state/Israel's right to exist + Israel allowing the Palis to return to work in Israel + a very limited right of return + the rest of the Arab world agreeing to normalize relations with Israel. There must be some kind of economic cooperation between the countries in the region; a joint project that crossed borders would be a great first step.

[Bill Baker]

Originally Posted by Thaiboxer18

Wow you are barely literate. Anyone who puts in faux laughter that much to make himself feel better is either 13 or retarded or both. The only pwning you have ever been involved in was when God pwnd your mother by making her give birth to such a stupid child.

As usual, your post is childish gibberish without any merit. Somehow, according to you, Israel put Hamas in power. That is funny, I thought that when the Palestinians voted for Hamas, they put Hamas in power. Silly me thinking that Arabs are capable of personal responsibility. Once you start going down a chain of attenuated events, you can blame anyone for anything, so let's focus on what actually happened, that being the Palestinian people electing a group that by its charter is committed to the destruction of Israel.

I see you are keeping with your theme of "Arabs are incapable of personal responsibility, any action that Arabs take is caused by Israel, those crafty Jews are to blame, they are always responsible" by saying that Israel is responsible for Egypt's decision to build a SEPARATION WALL from Gaza. In your feeble mind, Egypt is not autonomous, Egypt could not have any independent reason for wanting to avoid Hamas, and they are again simply weak-minded Arabs who have been manipulated against their will by the crafty Jews. Sure, Mubarak has taken very harsh steps to curb potential power of Islamist parties in Egypt, but that too is probably because teh Jews told him to. In fact, every time any Arab country takes any action that is not "pro-Palestinian," it is clearly caused by Israel.

Similarly, according to your weak logic, Egypt won't let Gazans cross in because of Israel. Sure, there is the fear that the Gazans could cause political turmoil or get the Egyptian masses riled up or smuggle weapons used to start a war that would have regionwide implications, but it is much easier to simply say that it is Israel's fault. The simpler the view, the better.

The rest of your "points" are almost too stupid to even respond to. LOL at Israel tolerating violence towards Palestinian civilians; pot, meet kettle. Hamas encourages suicide bombings and rocket attacks aimed at civilians; stop being such a fucking hypocrite. Should Israel have settlements in the WB? No, but the fact that they are Jewish only settlements has nothing to do with it. Jordan has a law that Jews cannot be citizens, Saudi Arabia won't allow Jews to even enter its country, and Jews were chased out of most of the region despite living there for thousands of years. Cry me a fucking river about Israel having Jewish only settlements. If the settlements were mixed between Jews and Palestinians, the latter would do everything possible to kill as many of the former as possible, but I guess that is ok with you. In your tiny brain, Israel should not be concerned about protecting its citizens, but should merely work to appease the Palestinians.

Before you whine about the number of civilians killed (and the term civilian is dubious from a Palestinian perspective anyways), look at the percentages of civilians killed vs terrorists/soldiers killed. You will find that Israel kills a much higher percentage of militants than vice versa. Before you complain about how many more civilians Israel has killed, you should actually think about how many attempts the righteous victims have made to kill Israeli civilians. They fire rockets and mortars into Israel damn near daily with the intent of killing civilians; the fact that their rockets don't always succeed doesn't negate their intention; if you can't understand that, you are beyond hope. There is a difference in morality between an army attacking a group of men firing rockets at civilians and killing the militants and accidentally a civilian/ a group of militants firing rockets with the express purpose to kill civilians.

Using UN resolutions to try to prove your point is silly, no surprise. How many Muslim countries are there? How many countries are there that fear international terrorism/need oil? The answer is many. If you want an idea of what goes on at the UN, I suggest you read a book called "The UN Gang" which will give you a better idea of what the UN is actually like. All you need to know about the neutrality of the UN is that Israel gets sanctioned more by that bastion of fairness than Rwanda or Sudan ever got while in the process of carrying out genocide.

As for having Palestinian prisoners, do you think that Israel should not jail people who are involved in plots to kill Israeli civilians? Are Palestinians automatically absolved from blame for their actions because they are righteous victims? Is a Palestinian who plans a bus bombing somehow beyond culpability?

As for Gazans, I do care about their future, because as long as they are unhappy, that is bad news for Israel. I don't see any viable answer to this problem as long as the Palestinian state is divided in half and Israel doesn't let the Palestinians cross between the two, which will probably continue for a long time. The best hope for peace is an immediate cease fire + an Israeli agreement to give back much of the land in the WB (it will keep the largest settlement blocs though and give land contiguous to the WB to the Palis to make up for it) + a Pali declaration recognizing Israel as a state/Israel's right to exist + Israel allowing the Palis to return to work in Israel + a very limited right of return + the rest of the Arab world agreeing to normalize relations with Israel. There must be some kind of economic cooperation between the countries in the region; a joint project that crossed borders would be a great first step.

thaiboxer u need to take notes from IG. ur post contains 1 logical fallacy after another, ive counted atleast 5.


IG PLEASE POINT THEM OUT, OR ELSE I WILL ONCE I HAVE TIME.


im not gna refute nethin till i find some time

[ig1983]

Originally Posted by Bill Baker

thaiboxer u need to take notes from IG. ur post contains 1 logical fallacy after another, ive counted atleast 5.


IG PLEASE POINT THEM OUT, OR ELSE I WILL ONCE I HAVE TIME.


im not gna refute nethin till i find some time

First shouldn't you respond to my last posts? Or do you not have the time?

[Ezra Pound]

Originally Posted by falconstalon

israelis treat palestinians a hell of alot better than their own arab brethren

about 64 killed last month half women and children

[Thaiboxer18]

Originally Posted by Ezra Pound

about 64 killed last month half women and children

falconstalon is a Palestinian you tard, but I guess you know more about how Palestinians are treated than he does

[Ezra Pound]

Originally Posted by Thaiboxer18

falconstalon is a Palestinian you tard, but I guess you know more about how Palestinians are treated than he does

Thanks for that content filled post you vile, racist, keyboard hero. Did you have a point?
Oh now tell me this is a biased source because you are so predictable and it's all that you can do rather then refute it; Mezan Center: 69, including 20 children and 16 women, killed by the army in April in Gaza� - International Middle East Media Center - IMEMC Please remeber to respond with your usual dismissive lol etc...rather then another source. Thanks.

[Bill Baker]

a.. 3. Domestic Water for West Bank Palestinians has increased by at least 640%
....snip..

this dosnt prove anything--- ya i kno whether or not palis r treated better by arabs or israelis isnt really "provable" in absolute terms, but u dont even touch on the issue.

The issue of water usage in palistine is actually n interesting one though cuz PALISTINE DOES hav a water crisis AND THIS IS NEGATIVELY AFFECTED BY THE OCCUPATION.

Gaza has a water crisis. Most people in the international community do not know the details as to why it exists and the root causes of the resource deficiency.
For the more than 1.4 million Palestinians who live in Gaza water shortages and water deterioration affects their health. Moreover, the water crisis creates agricultural, economic, social, and political instabilities that have regional ramifications. Most of the existing problems are a direct and indirect result of Israeli policy.
If the resource inequalities are not rectified soon, the Middle East will be facing an irreversible human and environmental disaster.

For the 3.7 million Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank they consume approximately 260-290 MCM/yr; and this figure includes domestic, agricultural and industrial consumption. However, 6.4 million Israelis have a total water consumption of 2,129 MCM/yr.

Since Israel transferred the Israeli settlers out of Gaza and into the West Bank during the Gaza Withdrawal in August 2005 some people may think that problems with violence between Israelis and Palestinians no longer exist in Gaza. However, Palestinians still live under occupation because Israeli forces still control all entry points (checkpoints), borders and border crossings, as well as sea and air space. In essence, Israeli soldiers decide who and what flows in and out of Gaza.

The other dimension of occupation that may not come to mind immediately is the fact that 38 years of occupation left a path of destruction in Gaza. A recent survey by a well-known Palestinian political figure and doctor explains there are “…charred and uprooted palm and fruit trees, acres of fields and dozens of kilometers of roads and infrastructure bulldozed, water mains ploughed out and electric lines torn down.”23 In addition, the tons of sand Israelis removed before leaving the settlements will intensify the sea water intrusion of the aquifer already taking place. Therefore the Gaza Withdrawal caused considerable environmental damage that Palestinians have to take into account when rebuilding the area.
By the way, the 7.9 MCM/yr of water the former Israeli settlers of Gaza were consuming consisted of 4.1 MCM from the aquifer and another 3.8 MCM transported by Mekorot at a subsidized price.24 Palestinians have the opportunity to purchase the 3.8 MCM at 3 NIS (.67 U.S. cents) per cubic meter. How much is the annual cost? The Palestinian Water Authority would have to spend NIS $11.4 M or U.S. $2.6 M for the transport of Mekorot water to Gaza’s borders.
With current, desperate conditions and the violence that has caused severe damage to Palestinian infrastructure why should Palestinians have to pay for a natural resource that should already be available to them?
The next and final section will explore briefly other, viable solutions to Gaza’s water crisis.

Water Crisis in Gaza: How Occupation Affects Palestinians Access to Water

[the followin is from feb 08 - so its very relevant]

Severe drinking water crisis in Gaza; IOF siege continues, prevents entry of materials essential for water treatment


Gaza's drinking water crisis was aggravated in the past three days. In addition to the shortage of water supplies to households, the municipal authorities in the Gaza Strip ran out of materials essential for the treatment of water. Yesterday, the Palestinian Water Authority instructed Gaza's people to boil the water at their homes before using it for cooking or drinking. This includes filtered water, which is widely used in households all over the Strip.

Israel's restrictions on movement, which were tightened since 14 June 2007, caused a shortage in hypochlorite; a substance that is widely used to clean drinking water. As a result, the 52 out of 140 water wells had to stop pumping. Water from these wells is too polluted and cannot be safe for human consumption, even after boiling it.

This comes as the Israeli Occupation Forces (IOF) continues to reduce fuel and electrical supplies to Gaza, which disrupts the operation of many water wells, thus affecting the authorities' ability to pump water to the population. People living in high apartment buildings particularly lack water supplies since they depend heavily on energy to pump it to their homes. Certain areas in Gaza did not have any water for days.

IOF's blockade has also disrupted the emergency construction of an alternative sewage treatment plant in north Gaza; an area that lives at the verge of a disaster that could occur at any time. This emergency project is necessary to evade the Bedouin village and the entire north Gaza area a direct threat to their life and wellbeing. One of the existing treatment plant's basin flooded in March 2007, claiming the lives of five people and causing wide-scale destruction to property in the area.

Al Mezan Center for Human Rights warns about deterioration of public health and environmental conditions in the Gaza Strip due to the IOF's movement restrictions, which prevents entry of materials necessary for water treatment. Also, the IOF frequently firing at municipal and Water Authority workers, who approach solid waste dumps or the sewage treatment plant project in the east of Jabalia, prevents them from performing works necessary for public health. These problems are exacerbated by the weakened capacity of the health sector in Gaza due to the blockade.

Al Mezan renews its call upon the international community to act effectively to protect the civilian population from imminent threats to their life in Gaza under the Israeli siege. The Israeli measures represent a flagrant form of collective punishment of civilians under occupation in breach of international law.

Al Mezan warns of the consequences of the failure of the international community to uphold its international legal obligations, which would risk the lives of thousands of Palestinians from the unprecedented blockade and the daily acts of killing by IOF.

Press Releases: Occupied Palestinian Territory, Severe drinking water crisis in Gaza; IOF siege continues, prevents entry of materials essential for water treatment

this ones ALSO VERY RELEVANT AND SHOWS THE DIRECT EFFECT OF ISRAELI OCCUPATION AND RESTRICTIONS on the occupied

As a result of Israel’s occupation
of the Golan Heights and its control over
southern Lebanon, Israel controls the headwaters
of the Jordan River. Through the occupation of
the West Bank, and the restrictions on
Palestinians access to their water resources, Israel
controls both the westward-flowing aquifers and
all waters flowing eastward into the Jordan River.
Furthermore, Palestinians are prevented from
fully utilizing the West Bank’s underground
water resources. During the Israeli occupation
period, permission for well drilling must be
obtained from the military authorities. Permits
had been granted for only 23 wells. Rigorous
water quotas are imposed on Palestinians. Supply
is often restricted, leaving communities without
water for considerable periods, and excess
pumping is punished by heavy fines [

http://www.desline.com/articoli/4061.pdf

heres another for good measure:

Environmental degradation threatens to undermine the viability of any future Palestinian state and create conditions that will make life in many parts of the Palestinian Territories impossible. Many environmental problems are accelerated and exacerbated by occupation practices, which prevent effective environmental management. This problem is particularly acute in Gaza in relation to the water resources and the ongoing military conflict.

Palestine - The Water Crisis in Gaza

im only copy/pasting relevant snippets which may not be the best ones to serve my purpose (of displayin the negative effects of israeli occupation and restrictions of pali's water supplies and usage)

i really dont know where u tried to go with the water issue cuz thats one of the biggest hurdles for the pali's right now, and one of the issues that need IMMEDIATE attention. i suspect ISRAEL curb its restrictions in respect to water usage/supply and border restrictions of water sent from UN and other relief org'ns because of INTERNATIONAL pressures

b. Arab responses to Palestinian uprisings are far worse than that of Israel's: Black September in Jordan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ur subsequent points are even weaker than ur former... first thing is a separate incident of civil and political turmoil due to instablity. ISRAELS DONE FAR WORSE TO THE PALIS (not that either arab govt/israeli govt are correct) dont make me repeat the stuff because ZIONIST THUG will cry "broken record" along with cuss words (but still ignore the points all together)

Hama massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (not Palestinian, but there is little reason to think that the Syrians would treat Palestinians any different than they did other Sunnis.

come on IG Argumentum Ad Speculum?? u must be having an off day.

ur using an invalid form of hypothetical syllogism....

ur hypothetical example really dosnt show anything at all.

now that i took time out to reply to this post, kindly review thaiboxers, and point out the logical fallacies for us. hopefulyl he will learn from this. if u want, U can stop at a count of 10 .

[Bill Baker]

Originally Posted by ig1983

First shouldn't you respond to my last posts? Or do you not have the time?

done, please see note above