[RuSSiaNThuG]

Originally Posted by Enraged Mongol

Israel doesnt give a fuck. Thats the problem.

that is not the problem

[RuSSiaNThuG]

Originally Posted by Bill Baker

THIS IS A FORM OF THE INFORMAL LOGICAL FALLACY
"waaaaee u only make israel look bad. but arabs do it too!! waaaaahh"

iv already explained ISRAEL is targeted more:


ther are definately more reasons ESPECIALLY taking aipac into consideration and how they affect US FOREIGN POLICY, influencing US to go to war in IRAQ, now trying to get them to go to war in IRAN, and using blackmail in order to make EGYPT tighten its border security

you are fucked


worse than a broken record

[Bill Baker]

Originally Posted by falconstalon

israelis treat palestinians a hell of alot better than their own arab brethren

firstly, PROVIDE SOURCE OF SUCH MISTREATMENT BEFORE OCCUPATION, (hell provide anything that resembles anything like this):



secondly, even if this is the truth, it makes it even more terrible.

poor pallies living in 70% poverty during a water crises and their population is rising.

by 2010, if the water crises isnt curved or resolved, it will lead to more unnecessary suffering and deaths.

on top of that they got israel and the lack of genuine support from arab states.

last, but not least; SEE POSTS #33 and #38

[Beisia]

Originally Posted by Bill Baker

A human rights crime
The world must stop standing idle while the people of Gaza are treated with such cruelty
Jimmy Carter
8 May 2008



The world is witnessing a terrible human rights crime in Gaza, where a million and a half human beings are being imprisoned with almost no access to the outside world. An entire population is being brutally punished.

This gross mistreatment of the Palestinians in Gaza was escalated dramatically by Israel, with United States backing, after political candidates representing Hamas won a majority of seats in the Palestinian Authority parliament in 2006. The election was unanimously judged to be honest and fair by all international observers.

Israel and the US refused to accept the right of Palestinians to form a unity government with Hamas and Fatah and now, after internal strife, Hamas alone controls Gaza. Forty-one of the 43 victorious Hamas candidates who lived in the West Bank have been imprisoned by Israel, plus an additional 10 who assumed positions in the short-lived coalition cabinet.

Regardless of one’s choice in the partisan struggle between Fatah and Hamas within occupied Palestine, we must remember that economic sanctions and restrictions on the supply of water, food, electricity and fuel are causing extreme hardship among the innocent people in Gaza, about one million of whom are refugees.

Israeli bombs and missiles periodically strike the area, causing high casualties among both militants and innocent women and children. Prior to the highly publicised killing of a woman and her four children last week, this pattern had been illustrated by a report from B’Tselem, the leading Israeli human rights organisation, which stated that 106 Palestinians were killed between February 27 and March 3. Fifty-four of them were civilians, and 25 were under 18 years of age.

On a recent trip through the Middle East, I attempted to gain a better understanding of the crisis. One of my visits was to Sderot, a community of about 20,000 in southern Israel that is frequently struck by rockets fired from nearby Gaza. I condemned these attacks as abominable acts of terrorism, since most of the 13 victims during the past seven years have been non-combatants.

Subsequently, I met with leaders of Hamas - a delegation from Gaza and the top officials in Damascus. I made the same condemnation to them, and urged that they declare a unilateral ceasefire or orchestrate with Israel a mutual agreement to terminate all military action in and around Gaza for an extended period.

They responded that such action by them in the past had not been reciprocated, and they reminded me that Hamas had previously insisted on a ceasefire throughout Palestine, including Gaza and the West Bank, which Israel had refused. Hamas then made a public proposal of a mutual ceasefire restricted to Gaza, which the Israelis also rejected.

There are fervent arguments heard on both sides concerning blame for a lack of peace in the Holy Land. Israel has occupied and colonised the Palestinian West Bank, which is approximately a quarter the size of the nation of Israel as recognised by the international community. Some Israeli religious factions claim a right to the land on both sides of the Jordan river, others that their 205 settlements of some 500,000 people are necessary for "security".

All Arab nations have agreed to recognise Israel fully if it will comply with key United Nations resolutions. Hamas has agreed to accept any negotiated peace settlement between the president of the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, and Israel’s prime minister, Ehud Olmert, provided it is approved in a referendum of the Palestinian people.

This holds promise of progress, but despite the brief fanfare and positive statements at the peace conference last November in Annapolis, the process has gone backwards. Nine thousand new Israeli housing units have been announced in Palestine; the number of roadblocks within the West Bank has increased; and the stranglehold on Gaza has been tightened.

It is one thing for other leaders to defer to the US in the crucial peace negotiations, but the world must not stand idle while innocent people are treated cruelly. It is time for strong voices in Europe, the US, Israel and elsewhere to speak out and condemn the human rights tragedy that has befallen the Palestinian people.

Jimmy Carter: A human rights crime | Comment is free | The Guardian

I bought the book but didn't have time to read it all yet. So far I read his accounts with Mr. Begin and Saddat. Very interesting and it's good to see a former president grow a concisions.

[ig1983]

Originally Posted by Bill Baker

firstly, PROVIDE SOURCE OF SUCH MISTREATMENT BEFORE OCCUPATION, (hell provide anything that resembles anything like this):



secondly, even if this is the truth, it makes it even more terrible.

poor pallies living in 70% poverty during a water crises and their population is rising.

by 2010, if the water crises isnt curved or resolved, it will lead to more unnecessary suffering and deaths.

on top of that they got israel and the lack of genuine support from arab states.

last, but not least; SEE POSTS #33 and #38

If you want a source, 33% of Palestinians remained to live under Israeli control. Less than 1% of Jews remained to live under Arab control.
JIMENA - Jews Indigenous to the Middle East and North Africa

People generally flee governments that treat them poorly. Since Jews fled the Islamic governments at a far higher rate than the Arabs fled the Jews it is reasonable to assume that the Arabs treated the Jews worse.

JIMENA - Jews Indigenous to the Middle East and North Africa

This is also assuming that the causes of the violence against these Jews was analogous to the rebellious Arabs of Palestine which initiated their flight.


In the present day, your chart is quite meaningless. Civilian deaths is not a measure of right and wrong. Israel does not have to sacrifice civilians so as to be "more right".

A better indication of humanitarian care for the other side is this article:
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel's dilemma over sick Gazans

How many Jews have ever been granted free health care in Arab hospitals?

[Enraged Mongol]

Originally Posted by ig1983

How many Jews have ever been granted free health care in Arab hospitals?

Thats a great idea. Lets kill these people and boot them from their land while our settlers and security torture and harass them. In return, we will care for their sick and take their gays!

[ig1983]

Originally Posted by Enraged Mongol

Thats a great idea. Lets kill these people and boot them from their land while our settlers and security torture and harass them. In return, we will care for their sick and take their gays!

Notice you did not refute any of my facts or logic....

A better idea would be for the Jews to defend themselves from the people that are trying to kill them. In the process, Israel will try to raise their standard of living through humanitarian gestures (free health care, billions of dollars of free industry etc.) and also protect persecuted peoples-- whether persecuted for sexual orientation in the West Bank, or whether subject to a real genocide like in Sudan.

[JSN]

Originally Posted by Bill Baker

mmmmmmm.. before u, i only heard good things bout the book..

ill let u kno wat i think of it once i read it

i can't give a real review since i only read like 1/4 of it. i just think it's kind of a weird book. i'm glad someone of some stature actually brought up the issue though.

[Bill Baker]

Originally Posted by ig1983

If you want a source, 33% of Palestinians remained to live under Israeli control. Less than 1% of Jews remained to live under Arab control.
JIMENA - Jews Indigenous to the Middle East and North Africa

People generally flee governments that treat them poorly. Since Jews fled the Islamic governments at a far higher rate than the Arabs fled the Jews it is reasonable to assume that the Arabs treated the Jews worse.

JIMENA - Jews Indigenous to the Middle East and North Africa

This is also assuming that the causes of the violence against these Jews was analogous to the rebellious Arabs of Palestine which initiated their flight.


In the present day, your chart is quite meaningless. Civilian deaths is not a measure of right and wrong. Israel does not have to sacrifice civilians so as to be "more right".

A better indication of humanitarian care for the other side is this article:
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel's dilemma over sick Gazans

How many Jews have ever been granted free health care in Arab hospitals?

u haven proven anything IG.... tsk tsk tsk.. im disappointed.

israelis treat palestinians a hell of alot better than their own arab brethren

firstly, PROVIDE SOURCE OF SUCH MISTREATMENT BEFORE OCCUPATION, (hell provide anything that resembles anything like this):

so wat needs to be proven is that ARABS treat PALIS worse than ISRAELIS treat palis.

ur post dosnt even touch on the topic. yell strawman!




HERE WAT MY RESPONSE WUD LOOK LIKE IF UR POST WAS EVEN RELEVANT TO THE CLAIM MADE (FOR WHICH I ASKED PROOF FOR):

JEWS fled from everywhere cuz they got cheap land cmon now... who u kiddin?

by ur logic muslim countries treated jews a hell of a lot better than others:

Majority of jews coming from europe??


and also by ur logic, israel dosnt treat arabs any better does it?

from a 58% MAJORITY being muslim to only a 16%???? ethnical cleansing either by mass emigration of arabs or mass immigration of violent israelis????


wat about the israelis who LEFT ISRAELI territory for illegal settlements in pali land???

they were either:

a) GREEDY opportunists who were tricked by the ISRAELi govt for cheap land (tel avivs just too darn expensive now)

or

b) theologically 'zionists' and believe its their god given land to gods chosen ppl

DID THEY "FLEE" as well???

[ig1983]

Originally Posted by Bill Baker

u haven proven anything IG.... tsk tsk tsk.. im disappointed.




so wat needs to be proven is that ARABS treat PALIS worse than ISRAELIS treat palis.

ur post dosnt even touch on the topic. yell strawman!




HERE WAT MY RESPONSE WUD LOOK LIKE IF UR POST WAS EVEN RELEVANT TO THE CLAIM MADE (FOR WHICH I ASKED PROOF FOR):

You are right it was a straw-man. Though I commited it not out of fallacious, devious reasoning, but because I thought that you were arguing that Jews treat their Arab minority, worse than Arabs treat their Jewish minority. Since you were not arguing this, (which would be a difficult argument to make logically), then I will recant the argument until someone disputes it.

As far as your argument there is no way to "prove" who was treated worse. How one is "treated" is objective and is based on a variety of factors (economic status, human rights, etc). But there is numerous evidence to point to the fact that Arabs under Jewish control fared better.

a.. 3. Domestic Water for West Bank Palestinians has increased by at least 640%

In the period from 1967 to 1995 West Bank Palestinians increased their domestic water use by 640%, from 5.4 MCM to 40 MCM (Judea-Samaria and the Gaza District – A 16 Year Survey 1967 - 1983, Israel, Ministry of Defense, 1983; Arnon Soffer, The Israeli Palestinian Conflict over Water Resources, Palestine-Israel Journal, Volume 5, No. 1, 1998). By way of comparison, in the same 28 year period Israeli domestic usage increased by just 142% (Statistical Abstract of Israel 1996, V47).

This huge jump in Palestinian consumption was possible only because Israel drilled or permitted the drilling of over 50 new wells for the Palestinian population, laid hundreds of kilometers of new water mains and connected hundreds of Palestinian villages and towns to the newly built water system (Background: Water, Israel and the Middle East, Israel Foreign Ministry 1991; Marcia Drezon-Tepler, Contested Waters and the Prospects for Arab-Israeli Peace, Middle Eastern Studies, Vol 30, No. 2, April 1994)

Palestinian sources broadly confirm this picture. For example, Taher Nassereddin, Director General of the West Bank Water Department, has stated that:

[Palestinian] consumption for domestic purposes has increased as a result of population growth and that there were no severe restrictions on drilling new wells for these purposes. (Taher Nassereddin, Legal and Administrative Responsibility of Domestic Water Supply to the Palestinians, in Joint Management of Shared Aquifers, 1997)

It is important to note, however, that for political reasons some Palestinian villages and towns refused to be hooked up to the new water system, and they therefore may not have a reliable water supply today. Thus, as reported in Audubon Magazine, the West Bank town of Marda:

... like many West Bank villages and towns, had refused to hook up with the Israeli water system in the early 1980’s, when Israeli officials offered them the chance. Doing so, the politicians felt, would legitimize the Israeli occupation. Even the villages that did hook up refused to pay into the Israeli water fund that subsidizes the system’s costs. As a result, Palestinians now pay as much as three times what Israelis pay for water. (Bruce Stutz, Water and Peace, Audubon, September 1994)

CAMERA: BACKGROUNDER: Does Israel Use “Palestinian” Water?

b. Arab responses to Palestinian uprisings are far worse than that of Israel's: Black September in Jordan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hama massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (not Palestinian, but there is little reason to think that the Syrians would treat Palestinians any different than they did other Sunnis.)


Thus, I admit that I did not read your original argument correctly. Now I corrected my rebuttal. No more strawman.