The Kalash Tribe of Pakistan

[Leagon]

Originally Posted by DrSatanDracula

The religion of our ancestors lives on.

The Kalash ought to be accorded a protected minority status by the UN. Prevent genocide/forced conversion in the current climate of extreme Islam.

The same with the Yezidi angel worshippers in the Middle East.

What!?!

I thought you believed in conformity. Shouldn't they assimilate or GTFO?

[DrSatanDracula]

Zankou:

The Coptics.

Thomas Christians in India.

Cao Dai

The various pagan reconstructionists.

Mohism.

I love these minority religions. They represent such fascinating cultural outgrowths and often-times cultural throw backs to prior eras.

[DrSatanDracula]

Leagon:

What!?!

I thought you believed in conformity. Shouldn't they assimilate or GTFO?

I am a nationalist, Leagon.

So long as they live in their own nation (which essentially the Kalash have for thousands of years) I have no problem with them retaining their cultural identity.

I would not more presume to ask the Kalash to change their ways than I would presume to ask any other person to change their ways so long as they live on their land and not within the structure of another nation. Were the Kalash to petition for US citizenship, however, I would demand they adopt our culture. Or any other nation.

Nationalism means respecting cultural identity as an absolute quality to be cherished and lionized.

[Zankou]

Originally Posted by DrSatanDracula

Zankou:

The Coptics.

Thomas Christians in India.

Cao Dai

The various pagan reconstructionists.

Mohism.

I love these minority religions. They represent such fascinating cultural outgrowths and often-times cultural throw backs to prior eras.

Same here! I was going to mention the Coptics as well ... I used to know a Coptic girl. But I don't accept Mohism and pagan reconstructionism as relics, to me that's a bunch of bunk, those religions died and you can't resurrect them.

You know another religious obsession of mine? Ritual sacrifice. Man o man, that's one of the deepest and most fascinating topics known to man. You ever read any Renee Girard? It blew my mind apart!

[SnakeEyes]

Originally Posted by ElKarlo

Ahem, I believe they are actually decendent from the Bactreo Greeks who settled the area after Alexander came through. They are one of the few tribes in Pakistan that is Polythesist, they are a throwback to the ancient world it seems,

But I think I read that genetically they are unrelated to the Greeks or Balkan people.

There were Greeks in Bactria before Alexander, he just set up the precedent for the first Bactrian kingdom. The Greek world was much bigger than what we normally see as Greece today. Greek mercenaries and artisans worked with the Persian empire before Alexander came along, and Greek sculptors were some of the first to depict the Buddha (and also the animorphic Siva figures and images as well).

These guys could be descendants of Greeks, but Bactria was already chalk full of various Iranian and Indian groups as well (notably Sakas/Scythians), not to mention the Dravidian peoples that had also crept that far North prior to the Indo-Aryan spread, and then of course the waves of Persians and Arabs that came though later (and then the Mongols, Turks, and other nomads that swept through in the first Millenium AD). Basically we shouldn't take their claims too seriously; displaced or marginalized people often come up with these kind of tales. Some Irish thought they were Scythians, the Gypsies that came out of Romania by way of this very area actually came to believe that they really were from Egypt, and there were people in France who actually thought they were descendants of Jesus. Not to say any of that is impossible, we just have almost no way of knowing for sure.

If you've ever tried to research the migrations and kingdoms of Central Asia, you would know how confusing and messy this shit is.

[Zankou]

Originally Posted by SnakeEyes

There were Greeks in Bactria before Alexander, he just set up the precedent for the first Bactrian kingdom. The Greek world was much bigger than what we normally see as Greece today. Greek mercenaries and artisans worked with the Persian empire before Alexander came along, and Greek sculptors were some of the first to depict the Buddha (and also the animorphic Siva figures and images as well).

These guys could be descendants of Greeks, but Bactria was already chalk full of various Iranian and Indian groups as well (notably Sakas/Scythians), not to mention the Dravidian peoples that had also crept that far North prior to the Indo-Aryan spread, and then of course the waves of Persians and Arabs that came though later (and then the Mongols, Turks, and other nomads that swept through in the first Millenium AD). Basically we shouldn't take their claims too seriously; displaced or marginalized people often come up with these kind of tales. Some Irish thought they were Scythians, the Gypsies that came out of Romania by way of this very area actually came to believe that they really were from Egypt, and there were people in France who actually thought they were descendants of Jesus. Not to say any of that is impossible, we just have almost no way of knowing for sure...

Of course we have ways of knowing. Number one, their uniquely preserved language. Number two, their uniquely preserved primitive Indo-Aryan religion. Number three, their unique genetics (a number of studies have been done on them). Number four, their unique phenotypes. Etcetera and so forth ... this doesn't mean you get a determinate answer, but it's not inherently unknowable. Irish may have thought they were Scythians, but the Irish never spoke Indo-Iranian and worshiped Vedic gods. Plus genetics show that they are worlds apart. So you could test the Irish claim and easily refute it, while the Kalash claim has been substantially strengthened under testing.

Now it's complicated if you want to try and compare "ancient Greeks," since modern Greeks are so different genetically from ancient Hellenes. But the Kalash are, by every indication -- linguistic, religious, and genetic -- an astoundingly isolated and distinct group. There are actually genetic studies that have been done to determine if there's any Greek component, and the current conclusion is that there might be a tiny bit of admixture with one group of the Kalash, but not much.

European Journal of Human Genetics - Y-chromosomal evidence for a limited Greek contribution to the Pathan population of Pakistan

[DrSatanDracula]

Zankou:

Same here! I was going to mention the Coptics as well ... I used to know a Coptic girl. But I don't accept Mohism and pagan reconstructionism as relics, to me that's a bunch of bunk, those religions died and you can't resurrect them.

I agree that they are not relic, but they retain minority status. They also at least attempt to follow (as much as is feasible, although that is usually weak willed...) the beliefs of those religions.

As to Mohism, I think at least some societies in the Far East claim to have retained an unbroken lineage. They claim to be remaining pockets of antique Mohism. I do not know if any of their claims have been verified, but this is somewhat different than pagan reconstructionism, which admits of Christianization for a period of over a thousand years.

You know another religious obsession of mine? Ritual sacrifice. Man o man, that's one of the deepest and most fascinating topics known to man. You ever read any Renee Girard? It blew my mind apart!

No, I have not. Do you have any suggestions for books from him? I find the idea of ritual sacrifice to be interesting as well.

The decline of ritual sacrifice seems also to have been a point in history where man became far more separated from the divinities he worshipped. The acceptance of exchange between man and the divine seems a principle of religious thought that ought to have been retained. Amongst those people who retain those traditions, it seems that there is very much a sense of the religion being "alive".

[Zankou]

Single most astonishing book I've ever read on religion:

Amazon.com: Violence and the Sacred: René Girard, Patrick Gregory: Books

It is on my top-ten list of most mind-blowing books I've read. Other terrific books in this area:

Amazon.com: Violent Origins: Walter Burkert, Rene Girard, and Jonathan Z. Smith on Ritual Killing and Cultural Formation: Walter Burkert, Rene Girard, Jonathan Smith, Robert Hamerton-Kelly: Books

Amazon.com: The Broken World of Sacrifice: An Essay in Ancient Indian Ritual: J. C. Heesterman: Books

[Sohei]

There are alot of tribes in the northern Middle East besides the Kalash including some Pashtuns and other Afghan tribes and the Gujarati people in northern India who have European features usually lighter skin, blue/green/hazel eyes and sometimes red hair.

Ive read that some scholars believe that they were descended form Celtic mercenaries who fought under Alexander the Great and who were encouraged to settle in those regions and start families.

[DrSatanDracula]

Zankou:

Single most astonishing book I've ever read on religion:

Amazon.com: Violence and the Sacred: René Girard, Patrick Gregory: Books

It is on my top-ten list of most mind-blowing books I've read. Other terrific books in this area:

Amazon.com: Violent Origins: Walter Burkert, Rene Girard, and Jonathan Z. Smith on Ritual Killing and Cultural Formation: Walter Burkert, Rene Girard, Jonathan Smith, Robert Hamerton-Kelly: Books

Amazon.com: The Broken World of Sacrifice: An Essay in Ancient Indian Ritual: J. C. Heesterman: Books

I am going to Barnes and Nobles that shit soon.

Thanks, my good man.