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Old 05-26-2008, 09:13 PM   #111 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by adren@line View Post
IE Homeland:

Southern Russia, or India itself?

Lets consider that the oldest IE text is from India, and that the oldest IE language is also Indian. Ofcourse, we have Hittite, but some stuff I have read has stated that the dating of Hittite was simply made up and isnt based on anything concrete.
Sorry, you seem like a nice guy but thats the dumbest shit Ive ever heard. I've studied Hittite, it's clearly archaic as fuck and the dating on the tablets from Bogazkoy are considered solid. Also, only crazy Indian nationalists try to put the PIE homeland in India. Also, Vedic is the oldest attested Indo-Iranian, but Hittite is older and even Mycenaean is about as archaic as Vedic. Some Avestan might be even older. Solid, well though out arguments have put the PIE Homeland in any number of places; the south Steppe of the Black Sea, the Ukraine, South-West Siberia, The Caucasus, and even somewhere around Lithuania. Nobody knows for sure.
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Old 05-26-2008, 09:32 PM   #112 (permalink)

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Originally Posted by adren@line View Post
IE Homeland:

Southern Russia, or India itself?

Lets consider that the oldest IE text is from India, and that the oldest IE language is also Indian. Ofcourse, we have Hittite, but some stuff I have read has stated that the dating of Hittite was simply made up and isnt based on anything concrete.


IE homeland is SW Russia, modern day Ukraine, identified with the Kurgans.

The place with the greatest diversity of a given linguistic group is where that lingusitic group originated. This place is around SW Russia. I think (trying recollect what I read months ago) it was some dialect of Lithuanian that bears oldest IE roots.

Snakeyes knows his stuff, as he said only Hindu/Aryan nationalists try to rewrite history and lie about IE homeland and ancient Indian history. No reputable western history buys these lies, infact some have gone on to denounce such blatant lies.

BTW
Historians/Archealogists sometimes use the term "Urheimat" to refer to the IE homeland. That term simple means original homeland so could be used for any group.
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Old 05-26-2008, 09:39 PM   #113 (permalink)
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How can we know the date of the Vedas ?

Most probably it was not written first hand, to be so ellaborated it needed many comentaries over centuries apart.

Which other great book survived so long ?

Just curious ...
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Old 05-26-2008, 09:41 PM   #114 (permalink)

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Jay Pan ROKK:

Quote:
Which other great book survived so long ?

Just curious ...
Gilgamesh.

The Hebrew Bible.

Homer's Odyessy and Iliad.

The Egyptian Book of the Dead (perhaps).
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Old 05-26-2008, 09:54 PM   #115 (permalink)

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Okay, I'm not totally familiar with the genetic research on this one, but my argument was that in fringe areas, such as the outer reaches of Scandinavia, the Mediterranean pre-Mycenean period and of course the Indian subcontinent, Indo-Europeans came in to places already populated by other cultures. Indo-European speaking peoples, just looking at them, exhibit very broad and diverse physical characteristics in the countries they inhabit.
Certainly. Especially in those fringe areas, there was intermixture. You cannot avoid such over thousands of years, unless you have an extreme form of ethnic segregation as practiced by certain peoples, such as the Jews, the Parsis, et cetera.

Quote:
My field is Indo-European languages and cultures; I've done comparative work on Greek, Hittite, Avestan, and Sanskrit, and I was a religion/linguistics double major, with the religious studies aspect focused on Greek and Indian religions, among others. The cultural and linguistic data I'm more than familiar with; Although the Dyaus Pitar/Zeus/Jupiter is a given, the Asura/Ahura thing is solid only for Indo-Iranian (this being the most solidly reconstructible IE family after Greek), with the addition of Old Norse Aesir a theory only, and one that has been convincingly argued against many times. There are other things we can boil down and say with some authority were culturally PIE, like the solar gods/goddesses like Eos/Usas (dawn) and Helios/Sol/Surya (sun), and some specific rituals like the Horse sacrifice and probably a fire cult of some sort (Agni/Hestia). But these are bare-bone details, they come from the most archaic sources we have from individual cultures and even then there is abundant evidence that in places like India, Greece, the British Isles and Scandinavia, they've been heavily influenced by contact with other cultures (all the Sanskrit retroflex stops, for example, which are there in the earliest examples we have, are non-Indo-European).
I am glad to meet someone with your expertise in this matter. I've always found this subject fascinating, so I am sure you will be able to give me excellent responses (such as this one) and other interesting things.

And yes, I am not claiming that the polytheistic religions of the I-E peoples are exact copies of one another. However, the large scale similarities, divine-name cognates, et cetera, make them reasonably lumped together and it implies a movement of people as well as language, as language does not imply religious adoption.

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Nothing about the cultural or linguistic evidence is proof of genetic affinity; consider that Haitians mix Christian themes in with Voodun practices and have a French/African creole as their language, that certain Scandinavian beliefs are now thought to be borrowed from Shamanic practices of Lapps and Finns they came in contact with, that they speak a creole of Spanish in the Phillipines with a Catholic and Buddhist religious strata, a creole of Sanskrit and Polynesian in Indonesia with a native animist and classical Hindu mixed religion, so on and so forth. Languages and culture spread and are adopted across cultures very easily. The French are a Germanic/Celtic ethnic group who adopted a Romance language almost a thousand years ago, and now they have a substantial Arabic population living there as well.
This is certainly true. Language does not necessarily speak of ethnic or racial discussions. However, it is quite telling when we have the aforementioned genetic reasons to consider population shifts, the aforementioned religious considerations (which do not bear any obvious marks of mass-conversions), and the fact that physical features (light hair and eyes) can be found in areas where IE languages are spoken. You spoke of the Tarim basin. You should know then that there has been evidence of light skin and hair found both in art and in corpses of those IE people. This is in contrast, obviously, with the Chinese and Turkic peoples around them.

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Basically, when we come to it the IE homeland question is almost considered a lost cause by leading Indo-Europeanists like Watkins, Jamison, Nagy, Witzel, etc; and almost nobody gives any credence to the "Aryan race" idea that was so popular a hundred years ago. Ancient history is just too confusing to say that with any authority and we know there's been heavy mixing and movement. If there's "convincing" genetic evidence, I haven't seen it and few people in the field are paying much attention to it. I read a book on the British Isles alone and it seemed you could only get peripheral ideas on Germanic and Celtic genes and their movements, so I don't know how we're supposed to believe these geneticists have somehow figured all this out. You would first have to sift through all the History and Archeology to even get an idea where everyone has gone and been, which is something the world of academia has been doing for 200+ years without a definitive answer, and then you'd have to test tens of thousands of people in a hundred different countries to be sure. This kind of genetic work is very new and people get very excited over it but it hasn't proven anything very conclusively quite yet.
I have strong hopes that the Human Genographic Project willr esult in some stunning insights. So far, it seems to have done so all ready. We're finding a picture of population movements that is quite intriguing.
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Old 05-26-2008, 10:22 PM   #116 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jay Pan ROKK View Post
How can we know the date of the Vedas ?

Most probably it was not written first hand, to be so ellaborated it needed many comentaries over centuries apart.

Which other great book survived so long ?

Just curious ...
The Vedas weren't written down, but we can do scientific analysis of the oral traditions, which are actually preserved with an unbelievable attention to detail. We can cross compare with different dialects internally and then with other Indo-European languages for archaic features, we can look at the content and how it compares with the content in later sources (Brahmanas, Upanishads, etc). Also, because we know that certain Rishis wrote the Vedas and that these traditions are family traditions, we can see different dialects inside the actual Vedas themselves(especially in the Rg), and we can compare those with later devolpments such as Pali and the Saka dialects (Iranian) that came in as well. There is a very strong scientific basis for doing these things, but they definitely don't give perfect dates, just good guesses. Indian nationalists are always trying to push it back farther and farther but reasonable scholars usually don't say much further than 2500-2000 BC.
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Old 05-26-2008, 10:29 PM   #117 (permalink)
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Ancient literature - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ancient literature

The History of literature begins with the history of writing, in Bronze Age Mesopotamia and Ancient Egypt, although the oldest literary texts that have come down to us date to a full millennium after the invention of writing, to the late 3rd millennium BC. The earliest literary authors known by name are Ptahhotep and Enheduanna, dating to ca. the 24th and 23rd centuries BC, respectively.

Texts handed down by oral tradition may predate their fixation in written form by several centuries, or, in extreme cases, even millennia. Classical Antiquity is usually considered to begin with Homer, in the 8th century BC. Many older literary texts are known, but often difficult to date. This includes the texts in the Hebrew Bible, the Pentateuch being traditionally dated to the 15th century BC, while modern scholars put it to the 10th century BC at the very earliest. An early example is the so called Egyptian Book of the Dead which was eventually written down in the Papyrus of Ani around 250 BC but probably dates from about the 18th century BC.
Contents
[hide]

* 1 List of ancient texts
o 1.1 Bronze Age
o 1.2 Iron Age
o 1.3 Classical Antiquity
o 1.4 Late Antiquity
* 2 References
* 3 See also
* 4 References

[edit] List of ancient texts

[edit] Bronze Age

* Early Bronze Age (3rd millennim BC) approximate dates shown
o 2600 BC Sumerian texts from Abu Salabikh, including the Instructions of Shuruppak and the Kesh Temple Hymn
o 2400 BC Egyptian Pyramid Texts, including the Cannibal Hymn (in parts likely composed from as early as 3000 BC[citation needed])
o 2400 BC Palermo stone
o 2350 BC The Maxims of Ptahhotep
o 2270 BC Sumerian Enheduanna tablet hymns (earliest author known by name)
o 2050 BC Sumerian Code of Ur-Nammu
o 2000 BC Egyptian Coffin Texts inscriptions
o 2000 BC Sumerian Lament for Ur
o 2000 BC Sumerian Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta

* Middle Bronze Age (ca. 2000 to 1600 BC) approximate dates shown
o 1900 BC Egyptian Westcar Papyrus; assumed age of the text, the surviving papyrus copy dates to ca. 1700 BC.
o 1950-1750 BC Kultepe texts
o The Epic of Gilgamesh (Sumerian version)
o Egyptian Story of Sinuhe (in Hieratic)
o Enûma Elish (Akkadian version)
o Atra-Hasis epic (Akkadian version)
o 1780 BC Babylonian Code of Hammurabi stele
o 1750 BC Hittite Anitta tablets
o 1700 BC Eridu Genesis
o 1650 BC Egyptian Ipuwer papyrus
o 1600 BC Chinese Oracle bones

* Late Bronze Age (ca. 1600 to 1200 BC) approximate dates shown
o 1500 BC Hittite military oath
o 1500-1100 BC Vedic Sanskrit Rigveda (redaction likely around 800 BC)
o 1550 BC Egyptian Book of the Dead
o 1400 BC Hurrian & Ugaritic Amarna Letters
o 1330 BC Great Hymn to the Aten
o the Babylonian Poor Man of Nippur
o the Epic of Gilgamesh (Akkadian version)
o Tale of Two Brothers from the Egyptian Papyrus D'Orbiney by the scribe Ennana.[1]

[edit] Iron Age

Iron Age texts predating Classical Antiquity (12th to 8th centuries BC):

* 11th c. BC Egyptian Story of Wenamun
* ca. 12th to 9th c. BC: Yajurveda, Atharvaveda
* ca. 11th c. BC: Avesta
* ca. 9th to 7th c. BC: Brahmanas
* ca. 9th to 7th c. BC: Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, Chandogya Upanishad, Jaiminiya Upanishad Brahmana
* ca. 9th to 6th c. BC: older parts of the Hebrew Bible (see dating the Bible)
o Pentateuch
o Book of Joshua
o Book of Isaiah
* ca. 8th c. BC: Homer and Hesiod (by convention considered the first authors of Classical Greece)
o The Trojan War cycle, including the Iliad and the Odyssey
o The Theogony by Hesiod

[edit] Classical Antiquity

See also Ancient Greek literature, Latin literature, Indian literature, Chinese literature

* 7th century BC
o Archilochus of Paros
o Alcman
o Semonides
o Solon
o Mimnermus
o Stesichorus
* 6th century BC
o Sappho
o Ibycus
o Alcaeus
o Aesop's Fables
o Hebrew Bible: Psalms, Book of Daniel, Book of Ezekiel
o Chinese Classic of History, Tao Te Ching and The Art of War
o Sutra literature
o some mukhya Upanishads (Katha Upanishad, Maitrayaniya Upanishad)
* 5th century BC:
o The odes of Pindar
o The Histories of Herodotus by Herodotus
o History of the Peloponnesian War by Thucydides
o The Suppliants, The Persians, Seven Against Thebes, Oresteia by Aeschylus
o Oedipus the King, Oedipus at Colonus, Antigone, Electra by Sophocles
o Alcestis, Medea, Heracleidae, Hippolytus, Andromache, Hecuba, The Suppliants, Electra, Heracles, Trojan Women, Iphigeneia in Tauris, Ion, Helen, Phoenician Women, Orestes, Bacchae, Iphigeneia at Aulis, Cyclops, Rhesus by Euripides
o The Acharnians, The Knights, The Clouds, The Wasps, Peace, The Birds, Lysistrata, Thesmophoriazusae, The Frogs, Ecclesiazousae, Plutus by Aristophanes
o The Five Classics (Classic of Poetry, Classic of History, Book of Changes, Classic of Rites, and Annals of Spring and Autumn, traditionally by Confucius)
o composed over the time spanning roughly the 5th c. BC to the 4th c. AD: Sanskrit Epics (Mahabharataand Ramayana)
* 4th century BC:
o Anabasis, Cyropaedia by Xenophon
o Nicomachean Ethics, ****physics by Aristotle
o Euthyphro, Apology, Crito, Theaetetus, Parmenides, Symposium, Phaedrus, Protagoras, Gorgias, Meno, Menexenus, Republic, Timaeus by Plato
o Elements by Euclid
o Book of Job (present form-- story is from at least 6th century)
* 3rd century BC:
o Liber Linteus
o Panchatantra by Vishnu Sarma
* 2nd century BC:
o Poenulus, Miles Gloriosus by Plautus
o Records of the Grand Historian by Sima Qian
o The earlier poems of Sangam literature in the Tamil language

* 1st century BC:
o Catiline Orations, Pro Caelio, Dream of Scipio by Cicero
o Gallic Wars by Julius Caesar
o Eclogues, Georgics and Aeneid by Virgil
o On the Nature of Things by Lucretius
o Ab Urbe Condita (History of Rome) by Titus Livius (Livy)
o Pali Tipitaka
* 1st century:
o The books of the New Testament
o Germania by Tacitus
o Lives of the Noble Greeks and Romans by Plutarch
o ****morphoses by Ovid
o Natural History by Pliny the Elder
o Satyricon by Petronius Arbiter
o Jewish War, Jewish Antiquities, Against Apion by Josephus
o Book of Han by Ban Gu
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Old 05-26-2008, 10:31 PM   #118 (permalink)
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The Vedas weren't written down, but we can do scientific analysis of the oral traditions, which are actually preserved with an unbelievable attention to detail. We can cross compare with different dialects internally and then with other Indo-European languages for archaic features, we can look at the content and how it compares with the content in later sources (Brahmanas, Upanishads, etc). Also, because we know that certain Rishis wrote the Vedas and that these traditions are family traditions, we can see different dialects inside the actual Vedas themselves(especially in the Rg), and we can compare those with later devolpments such as Pali and the Saka dialects (Iranian) that came in as well. There is a very strong scientific basis for doing these things, but they definitely don't give perfect dates, just good guesses. Indian nationalists are always trying to push it back farther and farther but reasonable scholars usually don't say much further than 2500-2000 BC.
Thanks.
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Old 05-26-2008, 10:42 PM   #119 (permalink)
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Snakeyes:



Certainly. Especially in those fringe areas, there was intermixture. You cannot avoid such over thousands of years, unless you have an extreme form of ethnic segregation as practiced by certain peoples, such as the Jews, the Parsis, et cetera.



I am glad to meet someone with your expertise in this matter. I've always found this subject fascinating, so I am sure you will be able to give me excellent responses (such as this one) and other interesting things.

And yes, I am not claiming that the polytheistic religions of the I-E peoples are exact copies of one another. However, the large scale similarities, divine-name cognates, et cetera, make them reasonably lumped together and it implies a movement of people as well as language, as language does not imply religious adoption.



This is certainly true. Language does not necessarily speak of ethnic or racial discussions. However, it is quite telling when we have the aforementioned genetic reasons to consider population shifts, the aforementioned religious considerations (which do not bear any obvious marks of mass-conversions), and the fact that physical features (light hair and eyes) can be found in areas where IE languages are spoken. You spoke of the Tarim basin. You should know then that there has been evidence of light skin and hair found both in art and in corpses of those IE people. This is in contrast, obviously, with the Chinese and Turkic peoples around them.



I have strong hopes that the Human Genographic Project willr esult in some stunning insights. So far, it seems to have done so all ready. We're finding a picture of population movements that is quite intriguing.
I was just reading about Tocharian and the Tarim Basin mummies (which I assume is what you were talking about), and the wiki article actually has some interesting stuff to say about genetic work that's been done:

Tarim mummies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's still slightly tenuous though, because there's no direct links from the language (dated to the 6-8th century AD but suggesting that the two dialects may have evolved from a proto-Tocharian in the mid 1st millennium) to the mummies (dated as early as 1600 BC but varying in the physical types). The frescoes where Tocharian was found do show "European" looking features, but again what does that mean? Not all Europeans are blond haired and blue eyed, and Hittites, Cimmerians and Scythians were described as being brown and black haired despite being part of really early Iranian migrations. Lapps, Finns, Hungarians and Basques are different ethnic groups but they share similar features with us.

The likely explanation is that a REALLY long time ago, when he first homo-sapiens came into Europe (by way of Russia/Siberia according to the newest findings), they spread out and settled different areas, mixing with other groups such as those coming out of Anatolia, Mesopotamia and Egypt (I'm talking still way before those groups became empires and civilizations), or hiding out in far away places like the British Isles and Taiga of Northern Europe (probably hunting Reindeer). Some of them likely stayed behind and hung out in Russia for a while maybe, or the fringes of Scandinavia, and then spread out in waves again later on. In between all this there's a ton of shit that goes down, like mini Ice Ages, the flooding of the Black Sea, the receding of shorelines and loss of certain land-bridges, drying up of rivers and lakes, etc. We don't know which group became Indo-Europeans, we don't know if that was even a homogeneous group to begin with. Since we figure they were pastoral nomads, our best source of comparison anthropologically speaking are Mongols, Cossacks and Scythians; which are all mixed bag populations genetically speaking.

We can assume maybe that Indo-Europeans were "white looking" but "white" is more varied than some people think. When Doric Greeks came down into the Med and mixed with Myceneans, they were much larger, even though they were still what we consider "Greeks". Caesar talks about blond haired slaves from Briton in Roman markets, but when when the Vikings came around to England years later they were much bigger and "blonder" than us. We don't know how homogeneous Aryans were when they came into India, we don't know anything about where Dorians and Sea peoples came from before they hit Greece, we don't know whats behind Celtic stories from Ireland about the Fir Bog and the Milesians and the Tuatha De Danaan. It's still very confusing, and for all we know, Indo-European could have been the language of any ethnic group got picked up and moved around by another. There's likelihoods, but not definitive answers. Yet.
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Old 05-26-2008, 11:05 PM   #120 (permalink)
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IE homeland is SW Russia, modern day Ukraine, identified with the Kurgans.

The place with the greatest diversity of a given linguistic group is where that lingusitic group originated. This place is around SW Russia. I think (trying recollect what I read months ago) it was some dialect of Lithuanian that bears oldest IE roots.
Once again, the SW Russian hypothesis is a good one, but if you read about it, the Northern Black Sea into the Western Ukraine argument is a good one, too. The Southern Black Sea Steppe leading to the Caspian is less impressive but makes good points, and the arguments for the Baltic area also have merit. There's problems with any one of these theories.

The Kurgan theory was Marijah Gambutas's big push, and it raises good points, but a lot of her other theories were retarded. The direct "Kurgans are IE burial grounds" idea has less acceptance now than it used to, as there are other competing sites that differ from the Kurgan style that may be earlier and make more sense; I kind of think Kurgans are more likely to be early Iranian sites than Indo-European. The Andronovo culture theory is a good one for Indo-Iranian and some people want to push it further for IE in general, which may or may not be valid. I have personal preferences but they change on a regular basis depending what I'm reading and thinking about.

When I was reading about the Black Sea flood I thought the Northern Area of the Black Sea (in the Ukraine) made sense (still do). When I started reading about multiple interactions between early IE cultures and Siberian Shamanism, I started to lean towards the SW Russian and even Siberian hypotheses. When I look at Lithuanian (which is definitely what you're talking about, there's a quote that goes "if you want to know what an IE speaker sounded like, listen to a Lithuanian peasant") and the areas around the Baltic my mind wanders out of SW Russia and towards there (I want to add that while Lithuanian and Estonian preserve strange archaic forms, we don't know how borrowing influenced them and the actual cultural and religious information is quite different from what we thought we knew about IE religion). It's really hard to say, and the way IE may have broken up is still poorly understood (Hittite's relationships, Satem/Centum splits, questions about ergativity in IE all still pose big problems to how and when the various families split up).
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