[icantstandit]

Originally Posted by flatline

Really, why ask any, we don't need to cast doubt on our elected officials. I mean, they are already elected, they are obviously the best leaders and representatives we can have. If anyone can be without fault, its definitely the man in the government office.

I think Bush is the bestest President ever! No one should question him or his motives!

[flatline]

Originally Posted by icantstandit

I think Bush is the bestest President ever! No one should question him or his motives!

Especially all the other representatives.

Democrats are closer to God than Republicans obviously.

[Gregster]

Originally Posted by 911=GovntOp

It was an IMPOSSIBILITY for al-Qaeda to have pulled off 9/11. For one, they've been penetrated by western intelligence since the mid-90s, just ask David Shayler and Mike Vreeland (former MI5 and Navy Intel). Mike Vreeland was in Canadian prison and gave a note to his jailers that hijacked planes were going to attack the WTC and Pentagon on the week of 9/11, he claimed to have known that while serving under Naval Intel. Second the 'hijackers' were being monitered since they entered this country, al-Qaeda meetings have also been spyed upon.

More standard-issue CT cant: "It was an IMPOSSIBILITY for al-Qaeda to have pulled off 9/11." A statement which combines the all-too-common logical/argumentative fallacy of the CT gang, that being declaring the complete impossibility of something, and then moving on from this question-begging assertion as though it is a fact beyond all repudiation.

Since the mid-90s, Al Queda hit two US embassies in two African countries in a coordinated one-day strike, hit a US Air Force barrack in Saudi Arabia, and blew the hell out of a US warship docked in Yemen. If Western intel agencies had all the goods on Al Queda, how did they manage to keep blowing stuff up?

Also look at who the hijackers were. 5 of them including Atta recieved military training and learned English at US bases in Florida in the 90's and others have trained in CIA run camps in the Balkans.

I'll not bother asking for some credible source that might confirm this as I doubt there is one that would. Instead I'll point out, yet again, how we have speculation passed off as fact (CT fallacy #2) and glaring contradiction, specifically that terrorists weren't behind 9-11 because they've been turning up alive and well, and they sure as hell couldn't have flown an airliner into the Pentagon because of the plentiful "evidence" they were inept pilots. While I'm supposed to accept this as fact, I'm also supposed to find damning that the terrorists who weren't involved in the bogus attack received training on US military bases, including lessons on flying planes so that the could perform the aerial maneuvers that they were too inept to pull off in the commission of the terrorist attack they didn't execute.

[flatline]

Originally Posted by Zankou

"Repeated pronouncements of what is and isn't possible in fields where the speaker has no expertise? Check."

I'm glad theres someone like BreakFree around for you, you know, because it would be a terrible thing to believe that there is any just reason to think (especially based on history) that the US would allow its people to die for its goals, or to exploit foriegn markets for the private sector.

[icantstandit]

Originally Posted by flatline

What is equally ridiculous is your seemingly impervious mentality that the US government wouldn't do such a thing, that they are either unable or unwilling to break the law, or to sacrifice morals or American lives to achieve their goals when their track record shows the opposite.

Who is (specifically) this "US Govt" you speak of?

Specifically, who IS the Us govt? Name orgs, types of people, etc if you don't know actual names.


(Whenever I hear "the US govt can do this" or "the US govt can do anything" or " the US govt is made up of Evil henchmen" I really VERY QUICKLY doubt the knowledge of the person making such a claim, because 9 times out of 10, they haven't a clue about the govt, they haven't any experience in the govt, and they don't know anybody who has ever worked in the govt... basically they are fools making huge blind assumptions about the nature of the govt and the people who work for it)

[flatline]

Originally Posted by Gregster

More standard-issue CT cant: "It was an IMPOSSIBILITY for al-Qaeda to have pulled off 9/11." A statement which combines the all-too-common logical/argumentative fallacy of the CT gang, that being declaring the complete impossibility of something, and then moving on from this question-begging assertion as though it is a fact beyond all repudiation.

Since the mid-90s, Al Queda hit two US embassies in two African countries in a coordinated one-day strike, hit a US Air Force barrack in Saudi Arabia, and blew the hell out of a US warship docked in Yemen. If Western intel agencies had all the goods on Al Queda, how did they manage to keep blowing stuff up?



I'll not bother asking for some credible source that might confirm this as I doubt there is one that would. Instead I'll point out, yet again, how we have speculation passed off as fact (CT fallacy #2) and glaring contradiction, specifically that terrorists weren't behind 9-11 because they've been turning up alive and well, and they sure as hell couldn't have flown an airliner into the Pentagon because of the plentiful "evidence" they were inept pilots. While I'm supposed to accept this as fact, I'm also supposed to find damning that the terrorists who weren't involved in the bogus attack received training on US military bases, including lessons on flying planes so that the could perform the aerial maneuvers that they were too inept to pull off in the commission of the terrorist attack they didn't execute.

Here is the source


Alleged Hijackers May Have Trained at U.S. Bases

The Pentagon has turned over military records on five men to the FBI



By George Wehrfritz, Catharine Skipp and John Barry

NEWSWEEK



Sept. 15 — U.S. military sources have given the FBI information that suggests five of the alleged hijackers of the planes that were used in Tuesday’s terror attacks received training at secure U.S. military installations in the 1990s.



THREE OF THE alleged hijackers listed their address on drivers licenses and car registrations as the Naval Air Station in Pensacola, Fla.—known as the “Cradle of U.S. Navy Aviation,” according to a high-ranking U.S. Navy source.



Another of the alleged hijackers may have been trained in strategy and tactics at the Air War College in Montgomery, Ala., said another high-ranking Pentagon official. The fifth man may have received language instruction at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Tex. Both were former Saudi Air Force pilots who had come to the United States, according to the Pentagon source.



But there are slight discrepancies between the military training records and the official FBI list of suspected hijackers—either in the spellings of their names or with their birthdates. One military source said it is possible that the hijackers may have stolen the identities of the foreign nationals who studied at the U.S. installations.



The five men were on a list of 19 people identified as hijackers by the FBI on Friday. The three foreign nationals training in Pensacola appear to be Saeed Alghamdi and Ahmad Alnami, who were among the four men who allegedly commandeered United Airlines Flight 93. That flight crashed into rural Pennsylvania. The third man who may have trained in Pensacola, Ahmed Alghamdi, allegedly helped highjack United Airlines Flight 75, which hit the south tower of the World Trade Center.



Military records show that the three used as their address 10 Radford Boulevard, a base roadway on which residences for foreign-military flight trainees are located. In March 1997, Saeed Alghamdi listed the address to register a 1998 Oldsmobile; five months later he used it again to register a second vehicle, a late model Buick. Drivers licenses thought to have been issued to the other two suspects in 1996 and 1998 list the barracks as their residences.



NEWSWEEK visited the base early Saturday morning, where military police confirmed that the address housed foreign military flight trainees but denied access past front barricades. Officials at the base confirmed that the FBI is investigating the three students.



It is not unusual for foreign nationals to train at U.S. military facilities. A former Navy pilot told NEWSWEEK that during his years on the base, “we always, always, always trained other countries’ pilots. When I was there two decades ago, it was Iranians. The shah was in power. Whoever the country du jour is, that’s whose pilots we train.”



Candidates begin with “an officer’s equivalent of boot camp,” he said. “Then they would put them through flight training.” The U.S. has a long-standing agreement with Saudi Arabia—a key ally in the 1990-91 gulf war—to train pilots for its National Guard. Candidates are trained in air combat on several Army and Navy bases. Training is paid for by Saudi Arabia.

[Zankou]

Originally Posted by flatline

What is equally ridiculous is your seemingly impervious mentality that the US government wouldn't do such a thing, that they are either unable or unwilling to break the law, or to sacrifice morals or American lives to achieve their goals when their track record shows the opposite.

"Repeated misstatements of the opposing viewpoints? Check."

Nobody's talking impossibility. The question is whether there is sufficient evidence for the hypothesis *taken as a whole* to be considered most likely. I haven't seen anything within a 100 miles of it so far.

Am I sitting around saying "the U.S. Government is unwilling to break the law!" Or "the U.S. government is unwilling to sacrifice American lives to achieve their goals!" Come on, that's just clown-argument. Nobody says that except CT guys trying to set up a straw man.

[icantstandit]

Originally Posted by flatline

Especially all the other representatives.

Democrats are closer to God than Republicans obviously.

Really? I thought the GOP stands for "God's Own Party"...


What is your point? That ALL politicians are "in on the 9/11 conspiracy"?

Oh jezzz...

[Zankou]

Here, I thought I'd throw a couple bones to the CT'ers on the board, since they never get to see this kind of stuff come from the people they're debating.

"I believe in the Official Story!"
"The US Government would never do anything wrong or immoral!"
"There is NO WAY that the Official Story could not be true in all respects! It's IMPOSSIBLE!"
"The Bush administration is telling the truth, and has never exploited 9/11 for sinister political purposes!"

There, I thought you CT'ers might be tired of setting up your own straw men all the time, and might like somebody else to do it for you.

[911=GovntOp]

Someone already posted the Newsweek article saying 5 of the alleged hijackers trained at US military bases so there goes the whole "CT" argument not being credible.

Regarding the 98 Embassy bombing, they let that happen. Mike Vreeland said it best, "let one happen, stop the rest". That guy is former Naval Intel officer who warned of 9/11 the week that it happend. Look him up.