[Mithra]

Originally Posted by chriskiss

Bacterium that produce ethanol is a good concept. The issue is that you can't get a high concentration once again. Once you reach a certain level of ethanol, the bacterium die so you're forced to constantly remove the ethanol as it's produced at a low concentration.

This form of ethanol would be useful for cracking but not as a burning fuel. I fully support it if they can apply it to fuel cells.

That shouldn't be too difficult to work around, bacteria is quite good at evolving.....

I do agree in regard to fuel cells, they are the future regardless of the energy source be it ethanol, nuclear, coal etc..

[Jay Pan ROKK]

Originally Posted by chriskiss

Let me start with your argument about ethanol not impacting food production. Firstly, you're displacing food crops by now growing food. Second, you're using up farmers who will want to grow ethanol crops because it is more profitable.

That is good, we need more farmers cropping everything we need, farming is a never ending renewable source.

Now, the ethanol argument. Ethanol and water mixtures have something called an azeotrope. This means that the mixture can only be distilled to a particular purity; in this case, 95% purity of ethanol. It takes a lot of energy or extra reactants in order to produce the 99.5% purity that is required for ethanol to be an additive in gasoline. The net energy used to produce fuel grade ethanol is negative. Ethanol is a lie that the government has adopted in order to assure the public that the energy crisis is not a crisis.

These kind of problem were solved in the 80´s.

Let me give you some numbers where ethanol is a reality, Brazil.

1. 95% of all new cars are flex, that means these engines can burn any mix of gas and ethanol, from 100% gas to 100% ethanol.

2. every single gas station in the country offer gas and ethanol.

3. regular gas already has 25% of ethanol.

4. regular diesel already has 2% of bio-diesel, and it will increase 2% every year.

So, bio-fuel works, it is not a lie, it is not negative, quite the contrary.

Instead of sending money to an oligopoly in middle east, we are supporting million farmers.

USA can do the same, the less dependent we are on oil the better.

[canadapride]

Biofuel seems to be doing quite well. But ethanol from corn seems to be impossible from an economical point of view. Too much corn to produce decent amounts of fuel, and the efficiency of that process doesn't seem to be able to increase to the point where it is economically feasible.

[chriskiss]

Originally Posted by Jay Pan ROKK

That is good, we need more farmers cropping everything we need, farming is a never ending renewable source.

These kind of problem were solved in the 80´s.

Let me give you some numbers where ethanol is a reality, Brazil.

1. 95% of all new cars are flex, that means these engines can burn any mix of gas and ethanol, from 100% gas to 100% ethanol.

2. every single gas station in the country offer gas and ethanol.

3. regular gas already has 25% of ethanol.

4. regular diesel already has 2% of bio-diesel, and it will increase 2% every year.

So, bio-fuel works, it is not a lie, it is not negative, quite the contrary.

Instead of sending money to an oligopoly in middle east, we are supporting million farmers.

USA can do the same, the less dependent we are on oil the better.

When you say farmers producing everything we need, you've hit the nail on the head. We need farmers producing food, not fuel. If you cut back on farming food, the prices go up. Supply and demand. Considering the issues with ethanol as a fuel, it's insult to injury taking away food and then producing a fuel with a negative net energy gain.

Your numbers are entirely irrelivant considering I wasn't talking about gasoline/ethanol mixtures. I'm talking about gasohol. That's water and ethanol. You have no idea how they produce bio-dieself so how can you say that it's not a negative net energy gain? The fact that it's used doesn't mean that it's a perfect solution. Look at electric cars; say we all drive an electric vehicle. Does that mean that car emissions have ceased? No, it means that we're burning coal to produce the electricity to charge the vehicle.

[Jay Pan ROKK]

Originally Posted by chriskiss

When you say farmers producing everything we need, you've hit the nail on the head. We need farmers producing food, not fuel. If you cut back on farming food, the prices go up. Supply and demand.

We just need more farmers, supply and demand.

There are millions farmers in the world wanting to crop anything.

These poor farmers in third world can not compete with first world subsidies.

Besides, farmers can offer many other things along with food energy, please include tourism, pet animals, ecological business and protection of environment.

Farmers can even crop winds to produce the purest clean energy.

Considering the issues with ethanol as a fuel, it's insult to injury taking away food and then producing a fuel with a negative net energy gain.

No, just no.

Your numbers are entirely irrelivant considering I wasn't talking about gasoline/ethanol mixtures. I'm talking about gasohol. That's water and ethanol.

This was a problem we faced in the 80s, not now.

You have no idea how they produce bio-dieself so how can you say that it's not a negative net energy gain? The fact that it's used doesn't mean that it's a perfect solution. Look at electric cars; say we all drive an electric vehicle. Does that mean that car emissions have ceased? No, it means that we're burning coal to produce the electricity to charge the vehicle.

We also should stop using coal, or at least make sure it remains are clean.

Some plants exist by nature, they are there without we doing anything !

Oil palm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We already have technology to make bio-diesel from any source of vegetal oil.

Sorry for my english.

[CJF]

Conservative idiots whine and groan about black people buying shampoo with their food stamps

Yet you will never see them complain about the welfare that farmers receive.

They get subsidies. Paid to not grow food. Billion dollar dams built for their farms that will never pay for the cost. Gobble up state water supplies because they get subsidized prices.

But they're white! White people getting welfare is good! It's not when it's those blacks!