ROY JONES JR. and his place in boxing history

[Flexwave2003]

Edit, tripple post.

[KO Cav]

Originally Posted by Kid McCoy

(And I suppose I’d highjack the thread if I restated my oft-posted belief that Carpentier was the greatest fighter Europe ever produced, so I won’t, but ask 20 experts that question just 30 years ago and 16 would agree. I know that because I did.)

Just to clarify, you are calling yourself an expert? 30 years ago.

[Carey]

The question I always ask is whether you are ranking in terms of accomplishments or in terms of who beats who?

I think most rank in terms of accomplishments.

[Kid McCoy]

Originally Posted by KO Cav

Just to clarify, you are calling yourself an expert? 30 years ago.

Noooo Mr. Cav, I'm saying that at the time of Carpentier's death in 75’ the phrase “greatest European fighter in history” was being used frequently in published obituaries and I asked a group of writers/historians with whom I had frequent association at 120 West 31st St. if they agreed with that description, and largely they did.

I’m afraid that yes, I am that old.

As for my being an “expert” ? Nah.
I don’t know nothin’ about nothin’.

[TKDhasBin]

Originally Posted by Kid McCoy

Of course I’ve been making lists like that since I was 12 and they become so hard wired I don’t put an awful lot into them.
Now I know you won’t believe this, by Delaney was to be my very next entry, and I could certainly find a home for him in the top 15.
(Good ol’ Mr. Fleischer had him at #9).

My # 16 pick would have been Delaney. Not Bivins, not Root, not Tiger, not Fitz nor Harold Johnson, Marvin Johnson, Qawi, Rosembloom, Saad, Maxim, or even Miske who like Greb did some of his work within that parameter.

Well, maybe Fitz.
They were all great though, as was Jones.


(And I suppose I’d highjack the thread if I restated my oft-posted belief that Carpentier was the greatest fighter Europe ever produced, so I won’t, but ask 20 experts that question just 30 years ago and 16 would agree. I know that because I did.)

My Grandfather watched Jack Delaney fight back in the late 20's and said he was the best Light Heavy he had ever seen. A great boxer with good movement and KO power.

Jack Delaney ran through the light heavies in the 1920's defeating most of the top fighters of his day....Maxie Rosenbloom....Mike McTigue....Tommy Loughran....Johnny Risko.....Paul Berlenbach (he won 3 of their 4 contests)....Tiger Flowers (on 2 occasions)...etc.....

Delaney once knocked out Tiger Flowers twice in one evening. He clobbered Tiger in the 1st round of their bout only to have Tiger and his group claim that he had beaten the count. Delaney agreed to keep fighting (the crowd was getting out of hand ) and ended up knocking Tiger out in the 4th round once again.....this time for keeps.

Jack vacated his Light Heavy crown in 1927 to go after Gene Tunney, but it was not to be.....Jack was rumored to have a bad drinking problem and would vanish for long periods of time. His Heavyweight venture was marred by several bad performances......the worst being his one round KO by Jack Sharkey......Delaney, who supposedly entered the ring intoxicated never threw a single punch. He stared at the far corner and just let Sharkey wade into him for the KO......a sad way to end a great career.

Legacies ?....Greatness ?.....Ring Immortality ?.......Only if the historians are kind to you, and remember you.....

Hopefully.....Roy Jones will stand the test of time.

[ncmmarookie**]

Sugar Ray Leonard lost to: Hector Camocho and Terry Norris

Muhammed Ali lost to: Leon Spinks, Larry Holmes , and Trevor Brebick

Roberto Duran lost to: Too many people to list(late in his career)

Thomas Hearns lost to: Uriah Grant and Iran Barkley

Floyd Patterson lost to: Jimmy Ellis

Why don't we question their legacies?

[Sharkey]

Originally Posted by TKDhasBin

Delaney once knocked out Tiger Flowers twice in one evening. He clobbered Tiger in the 1st round of their bout only to have Tiger and his group claim that he had beaten the count. Delaney agreed to keep fighting (the crowd was getting out of hand ) and ended up knocking Tiger out in the 4th round once again.....this time for keeps.

DELANEY FLOORS FLOWERS TWICE WITHOUT ANY HELP

Uses Nothing But Gloves and Nearly Causes a Riot When Referee Haley Says Negro Was Fouled; Police Put Stop to Argument

New York, Feb. 27--Jack Delaney of Bridgeport, Conn., accused of using a blackjack, anvil or other foreign and deleterious substance on Tiger Flowers of Atlanta the first time that he knocked him out, stepped into the ring with Flowers again Thursday night and knocked the negro out twice again in one fight.

Both knockouts were dealt in the fourth round, but Patsy Haley, the referee, became confused when Flowers went into his first collapse and ruled that Delaney had fouled him, a decision which aroused such an ugly temper in the packed house that it was reversed and the fighters were called from their corners, again to resume the action. After another minute of fiddling, Delaney shot his accomplished straight right smash against the Tiger's jaw and sent him down again, this time officially for good.

Cut Gloves Off Delaney

As soon as Flowers had been aroused from his second slumber and dragged to his corner, Delaney's gloves were cut from his wrists with a stiletto, which is part of every well-equiped fight manager's kit, and exhibited at the ringside to prove that he had neither gas pipe nor sandbag nor locomotive axle concealed within them. He also shook his bandaged fingers aloft in a vigorous manner calculated to dislodge and reveal to public gaze any scrap-iron or cobblestones that might have been hidden there.

Having thus proved his innocence of foul device, Delaney walked across the ring and had a cherry chat with Flowers, who was laughing as though he enjoyed nothing in the world more than being knocked out twice in one fight by Delaney.

Walk Balks Like a Mule

This ostentations display of virtue on the part of Jack Delaney, was occasioned by the hysterical screams from Walk Miller, of Atlanta, a Caucasion party, who manages Tiger Flowers. After Flowers was knocked into the flat character of a waffle the first time these fighters met, Miller went around and about asserting that his fighter had been fed what he called "the works" and expanding this idea he claimed that Delaney had carried a lead slug in his mitt.

The garden was full of trade, which became ill-tempered when Haley called the undeserved foul on Delaney in the fourth round.

Delaney, who had been taking some awkward but stinging slaps on his flank from the palm of the Tiger's right glove suddenly found the groove that he had been feeling for and shot his right fist along it, straight to the Tiger's jaw. Flowers went down at the ropes, graspingh the lower strand with his left glove. Delaney, in accordancew with the rule, started for the furthermost corner, but on looking back discovered that Flowers had risen at the count of four and was flopping in a dazed condition along the ropes. Delaney rushed back and tossed a punch at him which seemed to miss. Flowers went down and Haley stopped the fight.

Thought Flowers Disqualified

The customers thought Haley had disqualified Flowers for going to the floor again without due cause and were very much suprised and put out to learn that Haley had called a foul on Delaney. Haley said Delaney had hit Flowers was Flowers was down but the crowd had clearly noticed that Flowers was not only on both feet, but upright when the blow was fetched. They also thought it had missed, so there was no accepting the decision of a foul.

The house police rushed to the ring to kick any petulant customers in the face and the ringside rows all surged towards the corners of the fighters. The city police captain in charge of the large detail handling the crowd outside the building split a trough in the crowd getting out of the building to whistle up his reserves and the ensuring five minutes were full of interest to say nothing of riotous possibilities. Haley went to Delaney's corner and heard his protest. Then he conferred with Miller, who lacked the nerve to accept the victory in this manner.

Fight Another Round

At last Mr. Haley called the men back and it was announced they would fight round four again. After about two minutes of this second fourth round Delaney banged Flowers on the chin with another right and put him on his back for the full legal toll.


- by Westbrook Pegler of the United News on Feb 27th, 1925

[BasRuttenFan]

Originally Posted by wayneperry

Even though RJJ has had some non impressive performances in his later years I still regard him as easily one of the top 25 of all time. Do you guys think his late performances has tarnished his legacy? I think with him, he could have won a lot of his recent fight if he was younger. I think his age has affected him more then any of the great boxers of our error. Do you guys still think he desearves to ve called one of the all time greats in a sport that has a very long and rich history or do you think he was overrated and just got exposed? I don't agree with the latter maybe because I grew up in the 90's, but I just don't think we cannot say that this guy wasn't one of the all time greats!

Easily. If not top 15. A couple fights don't make a career and even if he is accused of fighting cans for his whole career, they couldn't even hit him.

[Sharkey]

DELANEY EASILY CAPTURES LIGHT-HEAVYWEIGHT TITLE

Gave Berlenbach Flashy Thrashing, But Fractured His Thumb and Will Not Be Able To Fight For Some Time

Brooklyn, N.Y., July 17--Jack Delaney, debonair hard-hitting boxer from Bridgeport, easily won the world's light heavyweight championship last night, defeating Paul Berlenbach of Astoria, the former title holder, in a 15-round fight to a decision.

Delaney fractured the thumb of his left hand in the sixth round. His physician said he would not be able to fight for some time. The bout scheduled for next Wednesday night with Francis Charles was declared off.

Sixty thousand fans looked on from stadium bleachers and ringside and there was not a single dissenting voice when the judges awarded Delaney the title he has sought so long.

Always Paul's superior as a boxer, and flashing a two-handed attack which had the former champion bewildered, and staggering at times, the French Canadian gave a brilliant boxing lesson to Paul as well as the fans.

A $400,000 gate rewarded Promoter Umberto J. Fugazy for his efforts in staging the first big championship battle in these parts.

What happened in the main bout was this;

Berlenbach, coached by the astute old Dan Hickey, had planned his fight to avoid a knockout from Delaney's right hand.

Delaney found this out early in the battle and whipped Paul with his left hand.

The stolid Astorian German could not change his plan of battle once in the ring.

Delaney outhit him with his left hooks, usually Paul's specialty, and fired such a hail of punches to the body that Berlenbach's guard finally came down.

Then in the closing round, Jack whipped over his right hand to the jaw and at one time appeared to have the former champion on the verge of a knockout.

As for Berlenbach's vaunted left hand, the wily Delaney tied it up at close quarters and sustained little body punishment. The new champion's mouth was cut and swollen from a hard left which Paul brought up in a clinch early in the fight, but otherwise he was unhurt.

Berlenbach was bleeding from a bad cut over his left eye which he recieved in the eleventh round. His chin was cut and dripping blood. Otherwise he was as strong as his conqueror at the finish. From the tenth round on, there was no doubt as to how the fight would go. Berlenbach actually fought listlessly. He was too cautious. He was trying to box, and even Dan Hickey had not been able to make Paul a boxer.

But what a boxer the new champion is! Delaney showed everything last night that a champion needs, his cool ring head never left him, and his left hook to the body and head carried a world of punishment. This left hand of Delaney's is something new and will be a factor in heavyweight contests of the future. His deadly right hand uppercut found the mark but seldom, for Paul's one chance rested in avoiding it, and the Astoria boxer took care to do so.

Thus to the satisfaction of nearly every one the greatest of world's light heavyweight championship fights passed into ring history. The night was clear and calm, perfect for the largest crowd that ever saw a fight in Brooklyn. The crowd was orderly and handled in perfect fashion.

The gate was the largest outside the heavyweight contests of recent years. Berlenbach traded his title for something like $150,000. Delaney recieved an unknown amount, depending upon his agreement with Fugazy, who won him away from Tex Rickard last spring.

Delaney, who came through with less punishment than any one expected for a fight that went the limit, has agreed to fight Francis Charles of France here next Wednesday.

The weights were: Delaney, 166 1/2; Berlenbach, 174 1/2.



- Frank Getty of the United News on July 17th, 1926

[TKDhasBin]

^^^
Great read Sharkey......I've read accounts of Delaney winning the title in the past, but I don't remember any of them mentioning a broken thumb.....Most accounts concur that Delaney won the bout handily..........your treasure trove is vast and impressive.