[King Kabuki]

Not even good? Now I know you're too hard on him. Ok, lets say he lost close to Winky, lets even say he lost close to Spinks, that still doesn't make him a bad fighter. Winky is/was elite, and Spinks was a WW and JMW champ with a style that could make anybody look bad, who had beating Karmazin shorty before the Taylor fight.

Hopkins is tough to get a read on, and when I heard him speak of passing the torch to Taylor it puzzled me a little as well, but in the ring in both their fights, I didn't see anything that made me inclined to think Hopkins was going half assed.

By "good" I mean "better than average." Taylor has always been average to me as a Pro. Considering where Ouma is now (the only guy you can say with a straight face he definitely beat during his MW Title Reign, who was 20lbs higher than his best weight), I stand by that.

You didn't see anything to indicate Hopkins was half-assed? His punch-output was abysmal, lower than anything he'd ever done in the first half of the first fight, and throughout the second fight.

I guess Hopkins was just over hill though. Maybe he just couldnt be what he used to be. - Oh, that argument is thrown out the window. Hopkins went on to DOMINATE and HUMILIATE Antonio Tarver for 12 rounds. Something he didnt do to Taylor. So I think that there proves perhaps Hopkins wasnt in his prime but that he had some magic left. This was where Hopkins was king and where he ruled for 20 straight title defences.

My argument was that Hopkins wanted out of MW, and to "pass the torch" as he said himself, to someone marketable. Not that he was over-the-hill.

Winky? Well for one give him credit for giving Winky a shot. That alone should mean something. No one wants ot fight Winky. He's expensive. He's tough to beat. And doesnt give you much to be thrilled about. Ouch. Do I think Winky might have won that fight? Yes I feel that way.

At the time he gave Winky a shot Winky was the JMW Champ, the guy Oscar didn't want to Fight. And I don't think Jermain MIGHT have lost, I think he DEFINITELY lost.

Kassim and Cory are two small but very slick guys that gave him trouble. The styles gave him trouble. But I feel he won those fights.

You must have never seen Kassim Ouma fight. Nothing slick about him, he's a come-forward swarmer who throws billions of punches that don't hurt. And Kassim was at his best as a JWW, and Cory as a WW.

At this point Taylor was still young.

That's no excuse, because at that point Taylor was also "The Undisputed Middleweight Champion of the World." You carve yourself BEFORE you wear the crown, not during your reign.

[JuanLeche]

Originally Posted by Dragonstyle915

Kassim and Cory are two small but very slick guys that gave him trouble. The styles gave him trouble. But I feel he won those fights.

Kassim is far from slick!! haha

[Tam-Tam]

I have a hard time calling Winky the 154 pound champ, at the time of the Pavlik fight.

[MC Paul Barman]

I guess I'd rather see Pavlik move up and fight Bute.
Not too interested in Pavlik v Wright.

[Wedgebuster]

Originally Posted by MC Paul Barman

I guess I'd rather see Pavlik move up and fight Bute.
Not too interested in Pavlik v Wright.

Agreed. MC Paul, you been practicing you freesties?

[a jessup]

I think many people focus too much on a fighter's last match instead of considering his career as a whole. Even great champions like Marvin Hagler had off nights (Juan Roldan, Vito Antuofermo, Roberto Duran), and the critics who judge champions by their worst performances can paint any particular fighter as ordinary. Kelly's accomplishments obscure the fact that he's still a young fighter who has recently stepped up in competition and is discovering what he can get away with. I think Kelly learned in the second Taylor fight not to depend exclusively on the old one-two to carry the match, and to develop alternative strategies and broaden his attack when things aren't going well. You'll probably see a more mature and versatile Kelly against Abraham and Winky if those fights materialize (assuming Pavlik gets past Lockett, of course).

I don't know the aging patterns in boxing, but in baseball terms Kelly is just now reaching his peak. Here's hoping he pulls a Stan Musial and proves that the best is yet to come.

[elbowsmash]

haha , i got blasted last time i posted, saying that pavlik isn't gonna hold the belt for long, and blocks punches with his face.

glad to see im not the only one who thinks this

pavlik is ok, p4p? get outta here.

calzaghe would slap pavlik silly.

[Dragonstyle915]

Originally Posted by JuanLeche

Kassim is far from slick!! haha

lol. I wasnt trying to imply that Kassim is slippery and hard to catch. What im trying to imply is that when he got on the inside and attacked Taylor with all those loads of punches that "dont hurt" (So I guess he's a small version of Calzaghe) he gave Taylor a hard time finding Rhythm. Not because Kassim's defensive skill level was that of a Mayweather but rather the size wasnt something Taylor was used to.

I still believe Jermain Taylor is a good boxer. I dont consider him average at all. I dont consider him an all time great but I do believe he has the Potential. He has decent speed and he's athletically gifted. Plus I think he's proved he can take a punch, Pavlik hit him with bombs and Hopkins (while not a devistating puncher) hit him with some big shots (Some which were alot harder than the shot that took Calzaghe and Tarver down). I also belive Taylor has alot of heart. I know heart doesnt get you anything but beatings like Gatti got without a high skill level but I believe Taylor's got the goods.

[devante]

Originally Posted by Seano

I'm not sure if youre serious but I actually agree with this. PAvlik has a style thats not going to keep him on top for long. I do think he is a good fighter, but seems one dimensional. Its not going to work forever.

this i agree w/kelly is big strong tough hits hard and solid; but he is also unspectacular tech and athletically, he is a guy who can make some noise and never be an easy out for anyone. But i don't see how he stays on top or dominates any div w/his skillset and phys ability; unless its a weak div.

i mean against taylor he looked solid; but not dominant, if jermaine had better conditioning he could have won that fight. He slowed down and kelly kept coming, the thing that MIGHT give kelly a chance to have a solid reign is his consistency, he is always in condition, always fighting hard and always prepared mentally; alot of more talented guys can't say that, an on their off days they can get caught. Kelly seems to be the kind of guy who doesn't have off days and doesnt make it easy by being out of shape, or in a bad mental spot; so in that instant he can maintain his spot.

but no i can't see him being p4p the best, esp not if he plans on moving up; great work ethic heart guy, only a good fighter.

[ViiT]

Pavlik has such ordinary fighting skills and simple game plan, there just nothing spectacular about him as a top p4p fighter.

He comes straight at his opponent and cracks them down, period. The classic conditioning plus heavy punch tactics.