Pavlik - Page 5

**King Kabuki** · 05-08-2008, 12:10 AM

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Of course I agree that he isnt on that list yet, but it is ludicrous to say that he doesn't have the potential to make it on the list (based on his current run).

No it isn't. It's not ludicrous at all. He KO'd Taylor once, but the second fight showed that Taylor was as responsible for that end as Pavlik was, as he fought well in the second and went the distance. An all-time Great doesn't go the distance with a guy regarded as one of the worst MW Champs of recent years.

As of right now Pavlik hasn't showed "greatness", that's just the truth. If it's in him, we have yet to see an indication of it.

SUGARSHANERULEZ · 05-08-2008, 12:15 AM

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Originally Posted by AtomicPope

But those fans never figured in Jermaine Taylor's fragile psyche. Comparing Taylor to Calzaghe is like comparing a rape victim to a spetznatz commando. Taylor is always twitchy, tense, and unsure, while Calzaghe can be summed up in two words - Iron Will.

Look at all of the chances Taylor has had and blown in his career. Zag's never frustrated.

Taylor had the world on a platter and blew. He was making top dollar for fighting scrubs. Pavlik had to knock him out and fight him again just to make money. Taylor is no Calzaghe. He's had his chance and blew it. Every time.

Pavlik's will to win, from what I've seen so far, seems to be right there with Calzaghe's.

Taylor blew his chance every time? What does that even mean? He got through a younger Bhop than the one Joe fought 2x without gettin knocked on his ass. Hopkins output was complete shit against Joe, and he still baited Joe into right hands over and over and over. Completely different style matchup than CAL/Pavlik though so it doesn't mean much. I just see Pavliks nonstop pressure, power, and output carrying him to a win.

SUGARSHANERULEZ · 05-08-2008, 12:17 AM

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Originally Posted by King Kabuki

An all-time Great doesn't go the distance with a guy regarded as one of the worst MW Champs of recent years.

Hopkins is regarded as an all time great MW by many, and he not only went the distance with, but lost to Taylor twice.

**King Kabuki** · 05-08-2008, 12:48 AM

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Hopkins is regarded as an all time great MW by many, and he not only went the distance with, but lost to Taylor twice.

No he didn't. But leave us not get started on that. If you feel Taylor "won" those Fights, then whatever, I don't, and won't give him credit on that. Besides, Hopkins is regarded as an all-time Great for FAR more than the totality of the 2 debacles with Taylor, but Jermain does absolutely NOT get all-time great status or anything near it for squeaking by Hopkins (if one feels he "won"), then struggling with midgets.

Tam-Tam · 05-08-2008, 12:58 AM

I don't have a problem with Pavlik going the distance with Taylor. I do have a problem with Taylor making Pavlik look bad in the rematch though. Thats not a good thing. Kelly didn't adjust at all and couldn't really do a thing with Taylor, who basically showed next to nothing in that fight.

I just wouldn't mind hearing why Pavlik beats Calzaghe. Specifically, what way do you think he does it, sug?

**King Kabuki** · 05-08-2008, 01:02 AM

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I don't have a problem with Pavlik going the distance with Taylor.

I just think it says Jermain as much as kicked his own ass a bit to help Kelly out in the first fight. Those fights kind of concluded in reverse, it'd make more sense to me if the first fight looked like the second, and the second looked like the first.

SUGARSHANERULEZ · 05-08-2008, 01:07 AM

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Originally Posted by King Kabuki

No he didn't. But leave us not get started on that. If you feel Taylor "won" those Fights, then whatever, I don't, and won't give him credit on that. Besides, Hopkins is regarded as an all-time Great for FAR more than the totality of the 2 debacles with Taylor, but Jermain does absolutely NOT get all-time great status or anything near it for squeaking by Hopkins (if one feels he "won"), then struggling with midgets.

No I thought they split the two fights, with Hopkins losing the first and winning the second. Either way, both fights were fairly close, which wouldn't be the case if Bhop was in with the worst MW champ ever. Taylor lacks motivation IMO, but when primed and focused, as he was in the 2 Hopkins fights and the Pavlik rematch, I believe he is a very good fighter.

**King Kabuki** · 05-08-2008, 01:13 AM

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No I thought they split the two fights, with Hopkins losing the first and winning the second. Either way, both fights were fairly close, which wouldn't be the case if Bhop was in with the worst MW champ ever. Taylor lacks motivation IMO, but when primed and focused, as he was in the 2 Hopkins fights and the Pavlik rematch, I believe he is a very good fighter.

Really? I thought he was terrible in both Hopkins fights, and only borderline not terrible in the Pavlik Rematch.

Hopkins didn't want to fight at MW anymore, that much should be obvious. I don't buy the bravado he expressed about being robbed and disenchanted, I believe honestly he tried to "pass the torch" to Taylor. But Taylor didn't fight very well either way (and neither did Hopkins for 5 rounds in the first fight, and most of the second fight).

Like I said, Hopkins status as a Great was cemented both pre and post Taylor, and the debacles with Taylor weren't blemishes enough to dismiss that. I don't buy the myth of "focused" Taylor as much as I would "focused" Zab. Two guys who are more rare than Chinese girls with green eyes, to quote Lo Pan.

SUGARSHANERULEZ · 05-08-2008, 01:17 AM

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Originally Posted by Tam-Tam

I just wouldn't mind hearing why Pavlik beats Calzaghe. Specifically, what way do you think he does it, sug?

I see it being similar to the Kessler fight, but Pavlik's higher punch outupt and better stamina being the difference. Kessler is bull strong, but he seemed psyched out by Joe and gassed by the middle/late rounds. I don't think Kelly would be. And though people complain about Pavlik being one dimensional, I think his punch variety is better than Kessler's and he is more accurate with his left hook to the head and body.

Don't get me wrong, I have mad respect for Calzaghe, but I think his age is starting to show ever so slightly, and a guy who grinds you down like Pavlik does is the perfect opponent to highlight that. A prime Joe beats Pavlik IMO, but I don't think he's there anymore.

Tam-Tam · 05-08-2008, 01:19 AM

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Originally Posted by King Kabuki

I just think it says Jermain as much as kicked his own ass a bit to help Kelly out in the first fight. Those fights kind of concluded in reverse, it'd make more sense to me if the first fight looked like the second, and the second looked like the first.

Well, I don't look at the fight that way, because at the end of the day, Taylor had his chance in round two and wasn't able to capitalise. In the end it was Pavlik who forced his fists down Taylor's throat and left him hung up like Marvis Frazier, in front of Taylor's people. That was a good win, IMO.

The rematch was not a good fight for Kelly though. Not in my eyes anyway. Thats the same Pavlik who didn't look hot at all vs. a bunch of average Joe's and lead so many to pick Miranda over him. Kelly is just a simple, strong, gritty fighter...with HUGE size @ 160. There's nothing particularly special about him.