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Old 07-10-2009, 03:31 AM   #61 (permalink)

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Originally Posted by Dogmeat View Post
(Tyson)'s achievements at the time such as unifying the titles at such a young age.
Any idea how many other unified HW champs were there?
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Old 07-10-2009, 04:11 AM   #62 (permalink)
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I'd like to know what the serious boxing fans would use as best examples of the top boxers for prime vs prime fights. In a dream world where we could go back and grab a fighter from one point in his career
Whatever suits their best interests because everyone has an agenda.which is why these hypothetical dream match ups are so stupid.The arguments used always end up contradicting one another.No one even in their prime is invincible,Joe louis wasn't invincible,muhammad ali wasn't invincible and mike tyson wasn't invincible in their respective primes

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All of his losses after Holyfield, I kinda dismiss and he was just past it.
Well let me ask you then,why do you not dismiss his losses against holyfield? was he not past it at that point especially considering the man lost four years of his career right in his prime.I don't regard boxing as the kind of sport where you can slip in and out of


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Originally Posted by pinoy ninja View Post
he had all the tools to be one of the best but he was a mental midget. he was a bully who didn't like to get bullied. anyone who stood up to him beat him.
Razor Ruddock didn't seem all that intimidated

Last edited by webeballin; 07-10-2009 at 04:32 AM.
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Old 07-10-2009, 05:04 AM   #63 (permalink)

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Marciano retired after running through the old folks home of fading contenders.
The quality of fighters was much higher back then. Most of Marciano’s opponents were far superior to the majority of today’s heavyweights.

In regards to the original question, there really shouldn’t be an argument here. Joe Louis is the greatest heavyweight boxer of all time. In his prime he would have beaten anyone.
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Old 07-11-2009, 08:53 PM   #64 (permalink)
 
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Let's look at some of Lennox's opponents:

Holyfield ?........ Past his prime when they met and Lennox struggled with him.

Tyson ?........Three years in prison took him off the top shelf.

Bruno ?.........A decent fighter who could'nt clear the bar at it's highest point.

Morrison ?.......An over rated left hooker with little else in his bag.

Klitschko ?......Don't get me started.

Mercer ?.......Mercer's best days were behind him when he hooked with Lennox.

Botha ?.......A fun guy to watch, but he's no modern day Billy Conn.

Golota ?........Nuff Said.

Briggs ?........Bang Bang Briggs used to gas out during the National Anthem.

Tua ?...... A decent and dangerous challenger. I give Lennox credit there.


There's a few decent fighters there. The great ones were well past their prime when they hooked with Lennox, and even then, they took Lennox to the limit (and Holyfield may have been jobbed in one of those fights).

Greatness ?..........I'm just not seeing it.

I wouldn't have taken you for a glass half empty kind of guy.

I ever tell the story within an earshot of you about the time about 32 years ago of my having a column published detailing the underbelly of Muhammad Ali’s career (“The Greatest con job”)?
It detailed his careful weaving through the gate keeper ranks, avoiding Mike DeJohn, being decked by Sonny Banks sidestepping Machen, and later Chuvalo (in 63’), “loosing” to Doug Jones, getting his glove ripped by Dundee to “save him” against Cooper, winning the title due to a legitimate injury to the aging Liston, the phantom punch conspiracy, being “utterly beguiled” by Mildenberger, beating well past their prime Folley & Williams in his finest efforts, thumbing Terrell, loosing his acid test against Frazier in his first “real test”, getting gift decisions late against Norton, Young and Shavers……anything I could conjure up I put in there, building a somewhat compelling case.

Not too long after I realized what a steaming pile of shit I’d written, a complete misdirection from the facts, and incredulously wondered why the sports editor had not more firmly come to rescue me if he knew I was insane, as he must have.
I realized too late that you can play that game with any fighter, or public figure at all for that matter, simply by backing facts (or quasi facts) into your hypothesis, like filling a paper bag with dung.

An epiphany for a foolish young man.
I don’t even remember why I’d wrote it.

The bottom line with these champions, even those not so well remembered, is that every human on earth is both welcome and encouraged to vie for the championship, and all but a couple thousand can honestly say they can’t use the money they’d get if they were successful, so by that process, the champion at any given moment is the best fighter under the time-honored rules that lives and breathes.

Lennox Lewis was the guy at the top of the pyramid, and his estate reflects his measure of success. The guys he beat along the way represent the best of the rest, and the names he didn’t beat during his busy tenure live only in comic books.


“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. Shame on the man of cultivated taste who permits refinement to develop into fastidiousness that unfits him for doing the rough work of a workaday world”.

- Theodore Roosevelt, 26th President of the United States and Boxer, "The Man In The Arena"
Speech at the Sorbonne
Paris, France
April 23, 1910


That said, Dempsey, Louis, Ali and probably Holmes would take his lunch money and his girl.
But on a Lennox good day, most likely only them, and only maybe.
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Old 07-11-2009, 09:20 PM   #65 (permalink)
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i dont think lewis is the best of all time and i dont know why anybody on here can justify that. He was a champ in an era like we have today, and one day people will talk of the awesome skill that Wlad has and how he would have beaten the next big thing. Blah Blah Blah...the truth is we will never know who is the best.
Don't discount todays era of heavy weights because they are massive and boring.

I find it staggering to believe that people actually think Lewis doesn't beat every other HW out there to this date 8-9x out of ten.

It is unfair to compare guys from 50-60+ years ago with Lewis, it is unfair to compare Ali's era with Lewis. We have entered the era of the super heavyweight, Lewis is the best so far. He hit as hard as Foreman, and was an excellent technical boxer.

Tyson is the most over hyped fighter in the history of boxing. He was fed a buffet of chumps.

Lewis would batter a prime Foreman, he would batter a prime Ali. He would batter Dempsey, Johnson so on and so forth.

Too big, too fast, too strong. Most heavyweights that occupy top 10 slots would not even be heavy weights by todays standards.
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Old 07-11-2009, 09:53 PM   #66 (permalink)

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Kid.....I don't mean to sound down on Lennox. Certainly he was top notch during his era. That cannot be disputed. I just don't see him as a "great" champion.

To be great....You must beat other great fighters when they are at, or close to their own threshold of greatness. To catch a guy over the hill or on the downside, and to beat him ,falls short of this definition in my estimation. Holyfield and Tyson are the only fighters during this era that you could define as "Great" (some will argue with me on this) and both were past their best days. Tyson was a mere shadow of his former self.....and Holyfield's skills were eroding with each passing fight. Lennox struggled with a much smaller Holyfield on 2 occasions and may have even lost the second fight.

Yes, Ali and other fighters had their off nights. You can't find a fighter out there who hasn't had a bad night....or a series of bad nights. But the mark of true fistic greatness is to rise to the occasion WHEN YOU ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO. Ali did it against Liston. He did it against Foreman in Zaire and against Frazier in Manila. Frazier did it against Ali in their first fight and Holmes did it with Norton in 1978. Holyfield did it with Bowe in their 2nd fight. Louis did it with Schmeling in their 2nd fight.......and on and on......These men became "great" by defeating greatness when it really mattered. Lennox could not do this no matter how you slice it, or what type of lens you are looking through. When handed the ball on the one yard line- He fumbled.

Folks on Sherdog like to say the 90's belonged to Lennox.....I say the 90's belonged to Lennox only because Bowe didn't want it bad enough and because Holyfield had been in too many wars too early on. Tyson was shot......and Mercer was heading for the exits. The bench was kinda thin after that......

I admit.....there are eras in boxing when the field is not that deep and you can only fight those who are out there.....But if you should find yourself in one of those eras, and wish for your name to be whispered along with other greats ,you must absolutely make certain that you don't get KO'd by guys like Rahmin and McCall.

See Kid.......Even a Great poster like yourself (who I respect) has trouble selling me the bill of goods on LL. It's a no sale.
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Old 07-11-2009, 09:54 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Yes let's pretend that Lennox didn't have his own flaws.Yes he was physically and technically gifted,yes he had a great jab and a right hand that can rival that of the greatest punchers(IMO)for being such a good boxer he has been outboxed by those who you would never dream of him being outboxed by(Mercer,bruno).Now I scored his fight with mercer 5-4-1 in Lewis's favour but I aknowledge that there were many close rounds during that blockuster of a fight and there is a strong argument or mercer and or even a draw,point is,is that mercer did out box and out jab him that night.bruno made him look like crap and both these men are recognized as punchers rather than pure boxers and mercer(and even bruno)was far from a super heavyweight.Nikolai Valuev is as super heavyweight as you can get and to my and many others eyes' he lost handidly and recieved a gift decision twice against a guy who he outweighed by 80-90 pounds and 10 inches in height in John Ruiz.Not to compare lewis to valuev obviously but let's just say that you're average super heavyweight of today hardly strikes you as anything really special(and this is coming from someone who it appears is the only one who has any interest in todays HW scene around these parts)

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getting gift decisions late against Norton, Young and Shavers……anything I could conjure up I put in there, building a somewhat compelling case.
Out of interest do you have your own scores for those fights respectively? Also your opinion on the doug jones bout? I heard about it being close and controversial but I've seen it three times now and scored it as such and didn't regard that fight as really being close other than a strong first round from jones

Last edited by webeballin; 07-11-2009 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 07-14-2009, 10:17 AM   #68 (permalink)
 
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Any idea how many other unified HW champs were there?
Almost all of them were unified HW champs through history (See below).

Background info :
The fragmenting of the World Heavyweight Title is a recent phenomenon, and is caused by opportunistic “associations” springing up and offering a “world title” that fighters can contend for, for a fee of course.
Their scheme works because fighters, managers, promoters and television networks like to advertise a fight between contenders as being for a “world title”, even if it’s not the real one. (They think it sounds better for casual fans).

Since this problem began in the mid 1960’s, most of the champions have ‘unified’ the various titles in existence, such as Ali, Frazier, Foreman & Tyson. Some like Larry Holmes didn’t have to even bother because he’d already beaten the “champions” before they even won the “other title”.

The titles around today number more than ever (there are actually about 12), but the only ones that experts acknowledge as having any meaning are those put out by the WBA, WBC, IBF and WBO.

The real, linier heavyweight champions of the world have been:

Onomastos 688-676 BC
Diappos of Kroton 672 BC
Komaios 652 BC
Pythagoras 588 BC
Tisandros 572-560 BC
Praxidamas 544 BC
Glaucos 520 BC
Philon 500-496 BC
Ikkos 492 BC
Diognetos 488 BC
Euthymos 484 BC
Theagenes of Thasos 480 BC
Euthymos 476 BC
Euthymos 472 BC
Menalkes 468 BC
Diagoras 464 BC
Akousilous 448 BC
Alkainetos 444 BC
Kleomachos 440 BC
Eukles 404 BC
Demarchos 400 BC
Phormion 392 BC
Damoxenidas 384 BC
Labax 376 BC
Aristion 368 BC
Philammon 360 BC (Sponsored by Aristotle)
Asamon 340 BC
Mys 336 BC
Satyros 332 BC
Satyros 328 BC
Archippos 300 BC
Kallippos 296 BC
Kleitomachus 216 BC
Epitherses 184 BC
Xenothemius 144 BC
Agesarchos 120 BC
Atyanas 72 BC
Thaliarchos 32 BC
Nikophon 8
Demokrates 25-33
Melankomas of Caria 49
Herakliedes 93
Marcus Tullius 141-145
Photion 173
James Figg 1719
Tom Pipes 1730
George Taylor 1735
Jack Broughton 1738
Jack Slack 1750
William Stevens 1760
George Meggs 1761
George Millsom 1762
Tom Juchau 1765
William Darts 1766
Tom Lyons 1769
Peter Corcoran 1771
Harry Sellers 1776
Duggan Fearns 1780
Tom Johnson 1784
Big Benjamin Brain 1791
Daniel Mendoza 1794
Gentleman John Jackson 1795
Thomas Owen 1796
Jack Bartholomew 1797
Jem Belcher 1800
Hen Pearce 1803
John Gully 1807
Tom Cribb 1809
Tom Spring 1823
Tom Cannon 1824
Jem Ward 1825
Peter Crawley 1827
Jem Ward 1828
James Deaf Burke 1833
William Bendigo Thompson 1839
Ben Caunt 1840
Nick Ward 1841
Ben Caunt 1841
William Bendigo Thompson 1845
William Perry 1850
Harry Broome 1851
Tom Paddock 1856
Tom Sayers 1858
Sam Hurst 1860
Jem Mace 1861
Tom King 1862
Jem Mace 1866
Tom Allen 1873
Joe Goss 1876
Paddy Ryan 1880
John L. Sullivan 1885
James J. Corbett 1892
Bob Fitzimmons 1897
Jim Jeffries 1899
Marvin Hart 1905
Tommy Burns 1906
Jack Johnson 1908
Jess Willard 1915
Jack Dempsey 1919
Gene Tunney 1926
Max Schmelling 1930
Jack Sharkey 1932
Primo Carnera 1933
Max Baer 1934
Jim Braddock 1935
Joe Louis 1937
Ezzard Charles 1949
Jersey Joe Walcott 1951
Rocky Marciano 1952
Floyd Patterson 1956
Ingamar Johannson 1959
Floyd Patterson 1960
Charles Sonny Liston 1962
Muhammad Ali 1964
Joe Frazier 1970
George Foreman 1973
Muhammad Ali 1974
Leon Spinks 1978
Muhammad Ali 1978
Larry Holmes 1979
Michael Spinks 1985
Mike Tyson 1988
James Buster Douglas 1990
Evander Holyfield 1990
Riddick Bowe 1992
Evender Holyfield 1993
Michael Moorer 1994
George Foreman 1994
Shannon Briggs 1997
Lennox Lewis 1998
Hasim Rahman 2001
Lennox Lewis 2001
Wladimir Klitschko 2009
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Old 07-14-2009, 10:39 AM   #69 (permalink)
 
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McCoy, you're a Maine-iac !!!

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Old 07-14-2009, 12:46 PM   #70 (permalink)

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McCoy is a walking encyclopedia of boxing knowledge, well done sir.
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