Greatest heavyweight of all time

[pinoy ninja]

Originally Posted by TKDhasBin

I give Tyson a pass on the Buster Douglas loss.....At the time he was the single most hounded man in America. He was going through a divorce (Ever go through one of them-They can distract the best of us ?) and was living his life out on the front pages. Tyson was having lots of problems in every aspect of his life from managerial problems to car wrecks to domestic abuse allegations......So, I don't get on him too much about the Douglas loss. He was ready to be taken.

all these excuses for tyson are getting lamer all the time. ali also had problems with women and was condemned in the news media. hes gone through a few divorces and was living his life out on the front pages himself during his boxing career but did it effect his performances? no. you said it yourself the mark of a true fistic greatness is to rise to the occasion WHEN YOU ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO. tyson couldn't do that even against a total chump.

the reason why tyson lost to buster douglas was becos he couldn't knock him out early. tyson always had trouble with guys who stood up to him and refused to get KO'd (he looked like utter shit against james tillis).

Originally Posted by TKDhasBin

Trevor Berbick was a bum ?
Pinklon Thomas was a bum ?
James Tillis was a bum ?
Michael Spinks (a multi-divisional champ) was a bum ?
Tony Tucker was a bum ?

We have a difference of opinion over what constitutes Bummage Qualities.....

i'm sorry but these guys are not exactly what you would call great by any means.

leon spinks was a LHW. tony tucker and razor ruddock are not great fighters no matter how you slice it.

truth be told tyson never beat an all time great. he had a chance to do it against holyfield and lewis but failed. he was given a rematch against holyfield but failed yet again (bit holyfield's ear off becos he couldn't take any more beatings and was looking for a way out).

great champions overcome and win rematches. ali and lewis did it. tyson cannot say the same.

[TKDhasBin]

Originally Posted by pinoy ninja

all these excuses for tyson are getting lamer all the time. ali also had problems with women and was condemned in the news media. hes gone through a few divorces and was living his life out on the front pages himself during his boxing career but did it effect his performances? no. you said it yourself the mark of a true fistic greatness is to rise to the occasion WHEN YOU ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO. tyson couldn't do that even against a total chump.

the reason why tyson lost to buster douglas was becos he couldn't knock him out early. tyson always had trouble with guys who stood up to him and refused to get KO'd (he looked like utter shit against james tillis).



i'm sorry but these guys are not exactly what you would call great by any means.

leon spinks was a LHW. tony tucker and razor ruddock are not great fighters no matter how you slice it.

truth be told tyson never beat an all time great. he had a chance to do it against holyfield and lewis but failed. he was given a rematch against holyfield but failed yet again (bit holyfield's ear off becos he couldn't take any more beatings and was looking for a way out).

great champions overcome and win rematches. ali and lewis did it. tyson cannot say the same.

Pinoy...It's Michael Spinks, not Leon.....Different brother, more teeth.

I get a kick out of folks rewriting boxing history on Sherdog to support their likes/dislikes of certain fighters.

Here's some hard, cold facts that even revisionists will have trouble with....

Mike Tyson was the youngest HW champion in history. He defended his championship on 9 occassions.....8 of those defenses were against former world champions. Not even Ali, Marciano, Louis or Dempsey can make that claim. When he defeated Michael Spinks, Spinks was undefeated and still at/near the top of his game.

A 3 year hiatus is death for a fighters career....Few men can come back from that and still be competitive at the top levels of the sport. Ali did it and maybe a few others, but it is certainly a rare happenstance. Tyson did it.....He came back from 3 years in the grey bar hotel and put that strap back on his waist (yeah, folks claim it was engineered by Don King and they down play it). No matter how you slice it, or which microscope you use to look at it- The dude came back and grabbed top honors when the odds of history were most against him. A thousand years from now when some dude picks up a copy of the Ring record book, it will show that Tyson came back and won his belt back.....What it won't show is a Sherdoggers opinion of that comeback.

Michael Spinks was the 1st LHW champ in history to go up in weight and grab the HW strap.....Many tried before him and they all failed. Some failed miserably.....What's more is he defeated an undefeated Larry Holmes (who is touted as an all time great) for the title.......Then he beat him again.....Yeah, I know- 2nd fight was a robbery. That's some LHW !....And that's the stuff that greatness is made from....

Anybody who thinks the Tyson who lost to Douglas is the same fighter who beat Spinks.....Just doesn't like Tyson.

Your corner in a fight can make or break you. Louis and Marciano had the same corner throughout their careers .Ali had the same support system behind him his entire career. On at least a couple of occasions that corner saved Ali from disaster ( as did Marciano's corner in the Charles fight). Why ? Because it was an experienced camp who knew the fight game and kept him inspired along the way. Your corner men can see things that you're not seeing and you can make adjustments from there.......Tyson had shit going for him in Tokyo except a bunch of gold digging hangers on yelling "Punch him back Mike ! Punch him back !" before putting an iced condom on his face.


And great champions overcome and win rematches ???

Here's a list of those who never got the office memo:

Larry Holmes (Spinks 2, Larry zip)
Jack Dempsey (Tunney 2, Jack zip)
Harry Greb (Beaten twice in a row by Tiget Flowers)
Alexis Arguello (Pryor 2, AA zip)
Danny Lopez (Sanchez 2, Lopez zip)
Buddy McGirt (Whitaker 2, Buddy Zip)
Joe Frazier (Foreman 2, Joe zip)
Ezzard Charles (Marciano 2, Ezzard zip)

Ahhhh......This is getting tiresome............Think I'll just pitch in the towel.

You're right Pinoy....Lennox Lewis is a great champ and Tyson is a bum.

How stupid of me to state otherwise.

[Seano]

Originally Posted by pinoy ninja

the reason why tyson lost to buster douglas was becos he couldn't knock him out early. tyson always had trouble with guys who stood up to him and refused to get KO'd (he looked like utter shit against james tillis).


.

You know, I think Tysons excuses were legit, I just don't think they matter. A loss is a loss.

Tyson was not himself in the Douglas fight from the opening bell. He went in there and tried to jab it out with a taller Douglas, when has Tyson EVER fought like that? His corner was clueless, they didn't even bring an endswell.

A fight is a fight though, he DID lose to a guy he should have beat, just like Ali with Norton spinks and holmes.

[prontostar]

ali should not have beat holmes at that point.

[Seano]

Originally Posted by prontostar

ali should not have beat holmes at that point.

Well I disagree with the thinking that Ali was the all time greatest HW except for when he lost to Spinks, Holmes and Berbick. He was the same guy, same career. His losses on his record count, no matter what his condition was. Tyson had like 45 fights before he lost to Douglas, but we base Tysons entire legacy on the fight with douglas.

We never give Tyson any credit for beating guys that beat Ali either. Spinks beat a stil relevant Holmes and Tyson crushed him. Holmes never got knocked out by ANYONE besides Tyson but he was shot right? Even though he went on to win many more fights against several relevant fighters for several more years?

Why can't I just cut Douglas out of Tysons career, the way we do with all of Alis losses and claim that he "wasn't his best?"

[webeballin]

Sure let's give credit to tyson for beating holmes and spinks who both beat ali(apparently michael spinks fought ali) the same way we should give credit to mike mollo for knocking out kevin mcbride who beat tyson,or give vitali klitschko credit for destroying danny williams who knocked tyson out

[Seano]

Originally Posted by webeballin

Sure let's give credit to tyson for beating holmes and spinks who both beat ali(apparently michael spinks fought ali) the same way we should give credit to mike mollo for knocking out kevin mcbride who beat tyson,or give vitali klitschko credit for destroying danny williams who knocked tyson out

If you are commenting on my post-, I'm aware of the 2 Spinks',I meant Michael Spinks because he had beaten Holmes who had beaten Ali. Spinks never lost to anyone at all, beat the Ali conqueror and was then DESTROYED by Mike Tyson. Tyson then went on to beat Holmes himself, proving the win over Spinks was no fluke.

BTW, whoever said Spinks wasn't a great fighter needs to brush up on some boxing history.

But anyway, you are right, thats what I was saaying about the HWs being the hardest "all time" list to make. All the HWs were too inconsistent. Even Ali.

[webeballin]

I took your post as you implying that we should somehow give tyson credit for beating holmes who beat a doped,washed up ali and then I saw spinks name included so I took it as you also including leon spinks rather than his brother

michael spinks is an all time great arguably the greatest LHW of all time,I wouldn't list him as a great at HW but I don't see why tyson shouldn't get credit for that especially in the manner of which he took him out but I also don't see why his fight against buster douglas shouldn't count.

legacies should be based upon wins as far as I am concerned,people trash lennox lewis because he was knocked out by mccall and rahman but he rematched them and he beat them

look at matthew Saad Muhammad he's in the hall of fame yet his record is piss poor,he was never the same after the beatings Qawi gave him but he lost to some fighters not long after those bouts that perhaps even at that point he shouldn't have lost to

[Seano]

Originally Posted by webeballin

I took your post as you implying that we should somehow give tyson credit for beating holmes who beat a doped,washed up ali and then I saw spinks name included so I took it as you also including leon spinks rather than his brother

michael spinks is an all time great arguably the greatest LHW of all time,I wouldn't list him as a great at HW but I don't see why tyson shouldn't get credit for that especially in the manner of which he took him out but I also don't see why his fight against buster douglas shouldn't count.

Yeah, I see how my wording was poor but I am aware of the difference in Michael and Leon. I was talking about Tysons wins compared to Ali opponents then mwentioned another quality opponent and THEN went back to the Ali thing. Its early for me. Cut me some slack.

Maybe Tysons loss to Douglas SHOULD count but so should Alis losses to Spinks,Holmes and Berbick.

[webeballin]

Originally Posted by pinoy ninja

i'm sorry but these guys are not exactly what you would call great by any means.

leon spinks was a LHW. tony tucker and razor ruddock are not great fighters no matter how you slice it.

truth be told tyson never beat an all time great.

the whole "beating a great" example is overrated,you look at many of the so called all time greats and they didn't really beat anyone great either.What's great? tkdhasbin doesn't recognize lennox lewis as great yet you say tyson could have been great if he had beaten lewis

the fact is berbick,thomas,bruno,spinks,holmes,tucke r,tubbs,ruddock,golota is a good reseme,hardly the best reseme of a all time but still a good reseme,

tyson his overrated by his fanatics and underrated by his critics........................just like any other fighter