[Bubble Boy]

Nice to see you in the Judo.

I might throw a couple of things out there:

Remember how you visited my log and talked about Crazy Monkey? How it can help you survive until the "real" boxing comes along?

The equivalent in Judo randori (when you spar), is GRIP DOMINANCE. In my opinion. Here's two examples from little training vids me and my coach did on a lark, grip set ups:





Listen to your coach of course, but I would spend as much spare time as possible (you sound busy) studying gripping stuff on youtube, etc. And then constantly working grips in sparring. I'm biased, and there's lot's of varying opinions on this, but to me: JUDO IS GRIP DOMINATION. I'm talking standing judo, not newaza.
The throws will come along, as will the falling. But focus on getting dominate grips and you'll be well ahead of the game.
But be careful about just gripping to defend. It'll get you penalties in tournaments, and maybe scolded by your coach.
Should be: grip fight, get dominate grip, throw attempt, grip fight, get dominate grip, throw attempt, etc, etc.
Work your singles and doubles and wrestling stuff, but watch out for counters. Judo guys have wicked counters to those kind of take downs. In fact, those counters may become your money throws, especially against wrestlers and MMA guys. Uchimata, Harai Goshi, Sumi Gaeshi, all great counters to double and single leg attempts...

Good luck!

[krellik]

Thats great stuff bubble boy! Thanks for the input! I will definitively be paying special atention to the grip part the coming sessions.
At this point from the little standing work we did the first thing I am a bit confused about is the posture that you should be using in judo. Standing in greco and such you lean forward and go in and pummel for grips and such, here it is more upright posture right? How does this change if your a short stocky dude like me anything special I should be looking out for in my posture to benefit my build? Is leaning in against eachother ala Greco a nono in Judo and do you ever try to take the back like in greco in judo for some suplex style throws?
Silly questions perhaps...

Anyhow I hope to get to do some randori in tomorows practice to get a feel for it.

I think I will try and throw in a single or double leg if I get the chance just to see the reaction, remember we dont have collegewrestling or people that do folkstyle or freestyle wrestling here basicly. The only people that drills those takedowns is the mma and bjj crowd more or less... Or I just get slammed like a ragdoll...;)

[krellik]

Oh and another quick question Bubbles, in Thai pummeling you want the double neck controll, in greco you usually pummel for double underhooks, is there a similar ubergrip that you normally fight for in Judo?

[Bubble Boy]

Originally Posted by krellik

Thats great stuff bubble boy! Thanks for the input! I will definitively be paying special atention to the grip part the coming sessions.
At this point from the little standing work we did the first thing I am a bit confused about is the posture that you should be using in judo. Standing in greco and such you lean forward and go in and pummel for grips and such, here it is more upright posture right? How does this change if your a short stocky dude like me anything special I should be looking out for in my posture to benefit my build? Is leaning in against eachother ala Greco a nono in Judo and do you ever try to take the back like in greco in judo for some suplex style throws?
Silly questions perhaps...

Anyhow I hope to get to do some randori in tomorows practice to get a feel for it.

I think I will try and throw in a single or double leg if I get the chance just to see the reaction, remember we dont have collegewrestling or people that do folkstyle or freestyle wrestling here basicly. The only people that drills those takedowns is the mma and bjj crowd more or less... Or I just get slammed like a ragdoll...;)

In terms of leaning in / vs standing upright...
With Judo, if your gripping skills are developed, you can start to stand upright without too much concern. In other words, you use the other guys gi as handles to keep him out. Since you've got the handles keeping him at bay, you can move your hips in, and closer, for faster entries into throws.
If your hips are way out, you can 1) Get penalized for stalling/ overly defensive tactics in tournaments, and 2) risk a good player coming in under you for tomoe nage or some sitting down sacrifice throw.

So, generally speaking, in greco you lean in and pummel, in Judo you stand up relatively straight and fight for gi grips.
So it's more hand fighting than pummeling.

HOWEVER, there's many top guys who are "leaners" and who pummel, and are heavily influenced by greco.

There's not a RULE that says you have to stand up straight (although most coaches tend coach it).

As a short stockly dude, work on grips that will allow you to go under for your takedowns and throws. You don't want to go for over the shoulder belt grab stuff if the guy is taller than you (unless you can get him bent over -- again, grip work).

Go for the back, for suplexes and the such, yes absolutely.

Remember, the gi changes everything. I the old traveling Judo challenge matches the Judo guy would have the wrestler put on a gi jacket. The wrestler, would not even think about it, caught in the moment, and would find himself tossed left and right becasue of the gi.
An old as dirt Judo trick.

I imagine with your grappling background you're going to give these guys fits.

But if you get countered on those double legs and suplexes, take a moment to ask what happened. There's some neat little tricks some of these judo guys have up their sleeves...

[Bubble Boy]

Originally Posted by krellik

Oh and another quick question Bubbles, in Thai pummeling you want the double neck controll, in greco you usually pummel for double underhooks, is there a similar ubergrip that you normally fight for in Judo?

There's not one, no. But there are several very powerful grips that I can recommend.

In my opinion, the most powerful grip of all time is the over the back belt grab.



Now it looks like the guy in white could easily pick up and dump the guy in the dark gi.
Certainly possible.
But here's a simple counter:



Hooking the leg and grabbing the pant leg. It's not full proof, nothing is, but it nicely counters the pick up (suplex or forward dump). You basically lock yourself in and then go for a throw.

This is my favorite grip and throw entry by far.


My coach likes to do an arm drag thing first, and then go over the back. You can see his style in two videos.

The main thing about the over the back grip is you MUST get them bent over first.
I like just walking right up and grabbing the collar of the opponent on one side with both hands, and then yanking down with alll my might. Once they're bent over, I sling the arm over and grab the belt. Once they're bent over, don't let them stand upright again. Keep them bent over as much as possible. If they start standing upright, get the hook in and grab the pants like pic two.
They may even lift you up at this point, but if you don't let go of the pant and keep your leg hooked in, you'll land on top (sometimes brutally hard) 99% of the time.

[Bubble Boy]

Oh, one more thing, and then I'll leave you alone dude!

The Paradox of the Turtle:

The turtle can be an offensive position, but only in the gi and when no striking is involved. In otherwords, in Judo, Sambo, and gi-BJJ.
I highly recommend this DVD.


The production quality isn't great, but the techniques are solid.

The turtle is a stalling position in Judo. Lot's of guys on top, realize you're stalling, and sometimes put their arms in bad spots, thinking that you're just stalling.
Going offensive from the turtle is a trick play, but you can really catch people off guard and wondering how the heck you did that slick submission out of nowhere.

On the other hand, training turtle stuff is risky for going on to MMA.
My turtle is offense oriented. In my MMA fight, I started getting hit and rolled to the turtle, instinctively.
100% of my turtle offense had to do with gi related moves, and I found myself lost, and got RNC'd lickety split.

[krellik]

Thrust me its all gold so do keep it comming its greatly apreciated!

And I certainly dont want to sound as im a greco wizard, my experience with it is highly limited where our mma club trained in the greco club and we did parts of our training together, from that I learned that I am fairly strong in the pummeling for position but I just simply dont have any uperbody throws or such. I hope judo can give me that;)

That over the back belt grab looks interesting, but im afraid with my t-rex arms that even if I get them bent forward I simply will have a hard time reaching the belt...;)

I actually have had that turtle dvd alongside with that other several-piece turtle dvd by that famous player (what was his name again... hmm)... Definitively a bit of information overload at that point. I actually have played around with it a bit more than what is usual for a mma/subwrestling guy simply because I am hard to choke out and with strong heavy guys its just more enjoyable to turtle up and try to regain guard from there.. Im not great at it but atleast its not new to me. Attacking the turtle on the other hand I have almost zero experience with so learning some actuall atacks against the turtle will be great.

Your post have really riled me up for going to training tomorow, I got a lot of little thoughts I want to try out tomorow and I hope I get to do some randori!

Mondays and wednesday will be judo days, its quite nice the gym is like 2 mins away from where I live on a bicycle...

[krellik]

2008-09-24 Wednesday 1.5 hour of Judo

Started out with a light warmup of some side running, etc, then some different breakfalls, some was very weird to me where you spin around and stuff. Then some carthweels, the basic and a more advanced variation where you should "jump" in it and land on both feet simultanious, I didnt quite get that one...;)
Then finally we was going to do a carthwheel to a handstand, a bit over my athletisism, the trainer was friendly enough to let me end it with a backwards roll instead...

Then some newaza to continue the warmup. I started out with the same smaller lighter brownbelt as last time. We both started out a bith to hard which made us a bit stagnant first, then we realised we should go light and loosened up which lead to much more rewarding rolling for us both.
Then we should switch patners and there where only like 5 of us so I got to go next with a little greenbelt 35kg 13-14 year old girl. I didnt want to smash a little girl so I imediately pulled guard and tried to do some ultra loose game on her. Eventually I put her in an triangle-armbar and light light put some preasure on the arm, after she refused to tap I let go of it and rolled out and bowed to signal that we should restart. Then she gave me this little speach in this incredibly snooty voice that I should decide wether or not I should take the armbar or triangle. It dont feel great to own a little girl but I just had to pull guard on here again, throw up the same triangle-armbar and had slightly more preasure this time for a direct tap. I really tried to not make a big deal of if and just kept rolling on with more very loose game. Im really really trying to not come in like that punk in a tapout gi who whines about doing stuff that "dont work in mma" and has attitude...

Then we went on in the training to do some light randori like sparring where one was going to try and throw the other with a hipthrow and the other should try and throw with a sweep. I imediately made sure to pair up with the little brownbelt instead. It felt fun albeight a bit awkward since I dont have to much and I just improvice. Standing he seemed to be a nice guy and let me throw him.
Then we switched partners and I got to go with another slightly older girl than the other who was just opposite in attitude. She seemed a bit worried when she pointed out that I was bleeding, the matt burn on top on my foot from last session had scraped up, so lost some time taping it..

Then the main instructor I think an older blackbelt that I hadnt seen before was done instructing a kidsgroup and came and had us instead. Some more gymnastics with handstanding and such. I got to do it with someone suporting me I cant hold a handstand.

Then we got to practice the judo equivalent of a firemanscarry throw, a technique I know the name of in wrestling but never have tried to execute. I got to do it on the blackbelt instructor and even though it felt fairly easy to pick him up the droping felt weird. I almost droped him on his head the first throw and felt like an asshole. After some awkward throws it apeared as I was trying to be to nice and bending forward to much when I throw him, it apearantly was better to be upright and drop him, atleast for a semi-midget like myself..
While he went on explaining some stuff about breakfalling to me he got a bit inspired in the moment so to speak so with out warning he did a legreap on me to show some thing, unfortunately on my bad right knee, I wasnt prepared and I could imediately feel that bad twisting pain in the knee that hurts my knee. After a small yell of pain followed by some explaining and convincing the instructor that he didnt need to feel bad about it I jumped around the matt some, no real pain, full range of motion, just felt a bit weak when going low, not to bad in other words just feels a bit scarry like that.

Then we went over some throws. He thought that some seionage (is that right name?) variation where you held his arm with one arm, and reached under his armpitt and spun in your hip to do a hipthrow would suit my build good. On the second try they started to say it looked really good, I really am not good with taking compliments but fun anyway I guess. So some drilling of that and two other variatons one where you held the lapel on the side nearest to the arm and one where you held on the other side either high or low on the collar. Both felt whery natural.

Then some other throws where you either underhooked the arm or held over it and steped in to hiptoss, apareantly that looked good to, but me being a bit stiff and not really twisting in my hip good enough I apearantly did another throw where you just gave a little bump. Which in turn prompted the instrutor to show me another similar throw here you reaped the leg also since that first one would be hard to execute on fast guys and where this should work better.
This part of the training was very stimulating, it felt good, I didnt feel worried I was going to break someones neck like in the firemans and it feelt natural. Also fun that the instructor and the brownbelt was extremely enthusiastic to teach and share, thats always good. And as mentioned I always have had the problem with taking compliments, but to be honest after some awkwardness earlier it felt good to hear that they seemed genuilely impressed with me. After the brownbelt started do you know this and this and this throw and I was, ...no I dont know any throws except what you showed today and in monday...;)

Then it was going to be some randori for those that was going to do some comp. I was unfortunately a bit worried about my knee still so I asked the brownbelt if we could do some newaza perhaps wich he agreed to. We went through some stuff about pinning and I asked some questions if they had some preferences to what they liked to see when you held sidemonunt. The instructor thought it would be better for me to hold it with my knee under the head. Then he more or less saw that I could hold kesa-gatami good and went to look on the randori instead.
Since the ligth brownbelt didnt want to be crushed by me anymore I had him pin me and we worked some on that.
Then we did some newaza sparring, I imediately pulled guard and now it was comming back to me a bit so a lot of armbars and triangles. I felt that he got a bit discouriged so I -again- said that I have done quite a bit on the ground so he hopefully dont feel to bad about being submitted by a whitebelt, I mean supernice guy so that would be unfortunate.

In large a very nice group of people albeit right not to many on the trainings. Also very fun training minus the little knee incident. Hopefully I can learn to learn to read the leghreaps and throws better to learn how to fall without my knee being twisted. I hope so and that its not going to be a problem I hate to need to be that guy that bitches about his injuries. Hopefully I can stay in one piece next time so I dare to do some randori in the end which naturally is more valuable for me right now at judo than newaza.
And right when you start up with something new it always generates such monsterposts in the log... Lol... dont worry in a month im surely moch more concise..;)

[Bubble Boy]

Sounds like a small, friendly, recreation oriented club.
I hope it provides what you're looking for over time.

If your knee starts feeling better, be sure to do as much stand up randori as possible.
I have to force myself to do stand up, even after 8 years, because (for me) the ground work is so less stressful.
I still get nervous before randori, especially if a good group of 5 or 6 solid guys (brown belt and up let's say) are doing round robin or something.

The little green belt who "coached" you was asking for it, and I would've done the same.

You'll definitely learn to "read" the throws better, and do slight adjustments and the such to save your knee.

Are you the biggest guy in the class? Sounds like you're training with dwarfs.

Oh, yeah Seoi Nage (shoulder throw), good throw for the short stocky fella against the tall fella:

[krellik]

That tall blackbelt from last session was up there in weight with me I guess, otherwise most seems to be around 65-80kg so yeah I feel heavy in that enviroment, remember I am the dwarf, just a 105kg dwarf... I think they have a few that are fairly serious with competing but it seems like a whole bunch of them havent been to the two sessions I have been to. The trainer said that the core groupd should be like 15-20 guys and girls and these two it have been 5-6. So hope they start dropping in again, on the uppside in the meantime I can get a bit more one on one instruction with the instructor.;)

Yeah I really do hope to manage to learn to save the knee better in being thrown, its a big part of taking judo for me. And -yes- it didnt feel good at all to not do randori in the end, I think I made the good choice in hindsigth because I am in some slight pain now after but I still felt a bit bad about it, especially since that supernice brownbelt is on such a much lower level than me on the ground and weaker also. Really trying to not come of as cocky or disrespecting so I propably go around looking eerily scary nice or something.

Yeah thats the throw we did three variations of, they felt very very natural, really liked them.

And yeah I had to supress my smirk really really hard when subtly trying to show that little greenbelt that you perhaps shouldnt teach people with a bit more experience on the ground... Pwning a 35kg 13 year old girl shouldnt feel good...;)