[markulous]

Originally Posted by AJax

You don't really believe that though, do you? It's an easy thing to argue intellectually, that good and evil doesn't exist, but when it becomes a personal issue, no one really believes that.

If someone came along and killed your family and raped your wife, would you realize rationalize it by saying "Well, as angry as I am, my anger is simply a social construct that was determined by my cultural upbringing". I doubt it.

I think deep down we all know objective moral values exist, and although our intellectual side may attempt to deny it, our emotional and personal side never does.

I think what he was getting at(at least this was my point and our posts were similar) was that good and evil are man made creations. It's all relative to someones way of thinking.

As for me, of course I know moral values exist. I hold on to them very dearly. But someone could have the complete opposite viewpoint as me and who would be right? Who knows really...It doesn't make my morals any less valuable though.

[Toda Hiro-matsu]

Originally Posted by AJax

That would be a very limited, closed thing to do. Evolution is change and adaptation that occurs in biological systems over time. While it may have some relevance to ethical theories and cultural standards, the question is far from "settled" simply because atheistic evolution is thought by some to be true.

Bottom line: the biological sciences does not have everything to say about morality.

"Atheistic evolution"? Please try not to allow your emotion to cloud your judgement just because I am atheist. "Bottom line: the biological sciences does not have everything to say about morality." I don't know exactly what you mean by "say". Unfortunately for your beliefs, our brain was formed as a result of evolutionary pressures, ie - natural selection. Morality is a concept conceived by this very same brain. I guess since you're a theist, you believe morality is literally a magical concept defined by god. I'm sorry you're such a stranger to deductive reasoning.

[Ultrashogun]

Originally Posted by Toda Hiro-matsu

"Atheistic evolution"? Please try not to allow your emotion to cloud your judgement just because I am atheist. "Bottom line: the biological sciences does not have everything to say about morality." I don't know exactly what you mean by "say". Unfortunately for your beliefs, our brain was formed as a result of evolutionary pressures, ie - natural selection. Morality is a concept conceived by this very same brain. I guess since you're a theist, you believe morality is literally a magical concept defined by god. I'm sorry you're such a stranger to deductive reasoning.

Your and my name are both inspired by the same book.

[Toda Hiro-matsu]

Originally Posted by AJax

You don't really believe that though, do you? It's an easy thing to argue intellectually, that good and evil doesn't exist, but when it becomes a personal issue, no one really believes that.

If someone came along and killed your family and raped your wife, would you rationalize it by saying "Well, as angry as I am, my anger is simply a social construct that was determined by my cultural upbringing". I doubt it.

I think deep down we all know objective moral values exist, and although our intellectual side may attempt to deny it, our emotional and personal side never does.

Wow, it's obvious you haven't followed this to it's logical conclusion. "intellectual side may attempt to deny it, our emotional and personal side never does" --- Yes, EMOTION. Emotions are not logical. You would base your emotion? No wonder you're a theist. It makes you feel better to believe there is a god. Keyword being: "feel".

[Philosophighter]

Originally Posted by AJax

You don't really believe that though, do you? It's an easy thing to argue intellectually, that good and evil doesn't exist, but when it becomes a personal issue, no one really believes that.

If someone came along and killed your family and raped your wife, would you rationalize it by saying "Well, as angry as I am, my anger is simply a social construct that was determined by my cultural upbringing". I doubt it.

I think deep down we all know objective moral values exist, and although our intellectual side may attempt to deny it, our emotional and personal side never does.

Leave it to a theist to use terms which generalize everyone into his own beliefs. "No one really believes that"...."Would you rationalize it by saying....I doubt it"..."We all know objective morals exist"..

Shit Ajax, thats a horrible way to approach engaging people. Assuming all those points and that everyone thinks like you is ridiculous. Let me join you in being general and say..Its funny how theists who use such relative "feelings" and "intuitions" to define their belief in god and such, are so quick to use such broadly sweeping relativities like you just said to encapsulate the whole of human thought.

[Tiger_vs_Mantis]

Originally Posted by hole in the sky

imagine a time before evil exists.

I don't know what you mean by this.
Are you saying that the concepts of good and evil hve not yet been invented by human beings or that no acts are being committed that we would (today) consider evil? The first scenario I can imagine, the second I cannot.

a mother nurturing her child wouldn't be considered good, just the 'state of being' since there is no evil to compare it to. say this little utopia goes on for many years where people all over do 'normal' things like help others, study hard for their futures, walk grandmothers across streets. etc.

how do people live? what do they do for food? how do they earn a living? how do they make decisions that might hurt other people? do people have abortions? do they eat meat? does homosexuality exist? is there a healthcare system? do people produce and consume pornography? is the economic system based upon capitalism, communism? is it a democracy? this example is absurd.

then all of a sudden, a man murders a baby and eveything can be put in perspective of what is good and evil.

can it? or maybe people just thinkit's the state of nature. you haven't even begun to explain why killing ('murdering') the baby is evil inthe first place.

isn't it entirely possible to look back before this horrendous murder and see that 'good' did in fact precede evil?

Possibly maybe but certainly not necessary. Personally I'm not seeing it.

it seems like people put too much emphasis on the definitions then the acts themselves.

I don't know exactly what you mean by this. In my opinion the definitions and the acts are intertwined. you decide whether an act is 'good' or 'evil' based upon your definition of good and evil.

in short, i do believe that good and evil are intertwined, but i don't agree that they begin intertwined; i think the contamination of 'evil' comes later, after the initial foundation of 'good'.

yeah, youre just repeating your conclusion, but your supporting argument is really weak and not convincing.

it's important to point out that without this innate knowledge of what's good, there would have been little hope for us to survive past the remedial stages of evolution. (why would mankind avoid dangers if there was no incentive to do so?)

1. An instinctual drive that may help the survival of the species is not 'knowledge.' Sex might feel good, and this helps the survival of the species, but that is not the same thing as saying that the human being knows that sex is good for the survival of the species. the human organism recoils from extremes of heat and cold. without this mechanism, the species might not survive. but this does not require 'knowledge.' A plant has a mechanism that causes it to bend towards the light. does the plant 'know' that sunlight is good for it?

2. knowledge of danger is not nearly the same thing as knowledge of good and evil.

3. there is plenty of evidence to suggest that as a species we do not have knowledge of what is dangerous to us. Why do you think so many people die of stress-related diseases? Chronic stress is caused by the human organism's inability to distinguish between real and imagined dangers.

4. what makes you think we are past the remedial stages of evolution? human beings have not been around very long at all. historically and genetically speaking we are barely removed from the "state of being." If humanity destroys itself then as a species we won't have gone very far at all.

alright sherdog, prepare to get learned by a white belt!

[Toda Hiro-matsu]

Originally Posted by Ultrashogun

Your and my name are both inspired by the same book.

My number 1 favorite book. I've always regretted not making my name Toranaga.

[Three Gun Fish]

Good defines evil, so it comes first. Both have been around forever, but good named itself first.

Evil, well, evil doesn't give a shit.

[Rinksterk]

Originally Posted by AJax

You don't really believe that though, do you? It's an easy thing to argue intellectually, that good and evil doesn't exist, but when it becomes a personal issue, no one really believes that.

If someone came along and killed your family and raped your wife, would you rationalize it by saying "Well, as angry as I am, my anger is simply a social construct that was determined by my cultural upbringing". I doubt it.

I think deep down we all know objective moral values exist, and although our intellectual side may attempt to deny it, our emotional and personal side never does.

Yes I do really believe it. If someone killed my family and whatnot, I would want that motherfucker dead because I would be pissed off that people close to me are dead. It has nothing to do with right or wrong, I'd be pissed off and I would kill that fucker.

[AJax]

Originally Posted by Toda Hiro-matsu

Wow, it's obvious you haven't followed this to it's logical conclusion. "intellectual side may attempt to deny it, our emotional and personal side never does" --- Yes, EMOTION. Emotions are not logical. You would base your emotion? No wonder you're a theist. It makes you feel better to believe there is a god. Keyword being: "feel".

Thanks for responding..

Emotions themselves may not be logical (and many times are not), but there is always a logical justifications for why emotions are caused.

You see, even you, as someone who denies evil, still recognizes the feeling of what I would call evil. My question to you is, why do you and many others have these feelings? And, is it significant if there is a cross-cultural, universal pattern among all the different causes?

If you recognize the feeling of evil but don't justify it, my thought is that you will be blinded to the very fabric that makes us human.