I posted this in Mayberry cuz I wanted some form of intelligent response.

Is there ANYONE here in the forums that can:
a) quote the preamble to the constitution
b) quote the pledge of allegiance
c) remind us of WHY settlers left England to come here
d) explain why it seems that we are corporately destroying ourselves and blaming ourselves when other people/nations/group kill us... its still some how our fault?

*sighs* ... America has gone far from its foundation. it saddens me. anyone out there feel this way?

[finnegan]

I personally am glad that the focus is shifting to the individual instead of the nation. Freedom is a very black and white issue. There are no degrees; you are free, or not. I doubt if our founding fathers would want us to slavishly memorize and blindly follow anything.
We, as a nation, are looking at the Government and feeling less and less like we have any say in it, so we blame it when we get attacked. Neither you nor I supported Saddam, Bin Laden, and whoever the next psychopath on a federal contract is; nor would I personally have approved if asked.
America is a fable. A myth that doesn't, and never, existed.

[JMart]

I've grown a bit apathetic/saddened at how our country has been run over many decades (and how it seems to have accelerated into decay in the past five or so years).

For ayone who wishes to see a good parallel, I'd recommend you read Thucydides' "History of the Peloponnesian War".

As far as the whole personal liberties thing is concerned, it's a damn' shame what's happened

[Jay Pan ROKK]

America dream still exist although politics are trying hard to destroy it ...

[Nodecaf]

Originally Posted by Jay Pan ROKK

America dream still exist although politics are trying hard to destroy it ...

I never got the whole American Dream thing.
How does that "dream" differ from the rest of the western world?
Its seems to me, that in the U.S, where you come from (money especially), plays a big role wether you will succeed or not. If you cant afford insurance and get sick for example.
Or having to pay for good education..

[computer fogie]

Originally Posted by sugarboyae

...Is there ANYONE here in the forums that can:

b) quote the pledge of allegiance...

Not trying to be difficult, but why is the pledge of allegiance so important to you? It's basically an extremely nationalist bit of propaganda. "With liberty and justice for all"? Yeah, OK. "One nation, under god..." Sorry, rational people don't like religion-based governments, we scorn all of them (except our own, of course).

My biggest problem with this crap is that (while I was in school, anyway) every kid had to stand with their hand on their heart, face the flag, and recite the words together. What does that kind of group brainwashing remind you of? If that exact same thing was done in any other country, wouldn't you think it kind of dumb, possibly offensive? Sure, but not in the USA, the best country in the world.

You might mean well, but your ideals are very superficial. The real America is something very different from all that founding father mythology and rabid nationalsim.

[computer fogie]

Originally Posted by Nodecaf

I never got the whole American Dream thing.
How does that "dream" differ from the rest of the western world?
Its seems to me, that in the U.S, where you come from (money especially), plays a big role wether you will succeed or not. If you cant afford insurance and get sick for example.
Or having to pay for good education..

You have a good point. The "American Dream" just meanes that in the US, money is king. It's all about greed, and what things people will do as slaves of greed.

It's easier for a greedy person to get money in the US than probably anywhere else, which is seen as a good thing by some people. The US attracts some of the worst people in the world, because the US is the world capital of greed.

Originally Posted by computer fogie

Not trying to be difficult, but why is the pledge of allegiance so important to you? It's basically an extremely nationalist bit of propaganda. "With liberty and justice for all"? Yeah, OK. "One nation, under god..." Sorry, rational people don't like religion-based governments, we scorn all of them (except our own, of course).

My biggest problem with this crap is that (while I was in school, anyway) every kid had to stand with their hand on their heart, face the flag, and recite the words together. What does that kind of group brainwashing remind you of? If that exact same thing was done in any other country, wouldn't you think it kind of dumb, possibly offensive? Sure, but not in the USA, the best country in the world.

You might mean well, but your ideals are very superficial. The real America is something very different from all that founding father mythology and rabid nationalsim.

the only difference between the U.S. and say perhaps Nazi Germany or anything else you've alluded to (ie. islamic nations) -- is that we (at least we used to) encourage a peaceful and classical democratic method of appealing disagreements.

the pledge is simply a pledge. why belong to a nation if you are not loyal to it? no one knows the preamble? do you not know your basic rights? or do you (in general) hinge upon the propogandic greens, blues, reds, and rainbows out there? Nationalism isn't bad if it keeps the people of that nation safe. America was founded for religious freedoms. It was based primarily off of deistic and some judeo-christian beliefs as guidelines of values and moralities and never began to scorn nor forcibly impose as such.

as for the american dream. i believe there was a thread addressing.. what IS the american dream.

i thought personally it was life, liberty, pursuit of happiness.

[MadFistWilly]

I'm not really sure that it was ever really there to begin with. Even at the time of the founding of this country, we said "all men are created equal", yet we condoned, and even promoted slavery. We justified this with religion and pseudo-science, claiming slaves to be 'less-than-human'. Our country's history is filled with things that oppose the idealistic view of America, the land of the free.

I sort of see it as there being two distinct America's. One is our factual history and current structure under which we live, and the other is this magical, truly free place that exists only in theory. It's a great idea, but there is way too much money, corruption, and control for the idealistic America to exist.

[Sinatra]

Originally Posted by sugarboyae

I posted this in Mayberry cuz I wanted some form of intelligent response.

Is there ANYONE here in the forums that can:
a) quote the preamble to the constitution
b) quote the pledge of allegiance
c) remind us of WHY settlers left England to come here
d) explain why it seems that we are corporately destroying ourselves and blaming ourselves when other people/nations/group kill us... its still some how our fault?

*sighs* ... America has gone far from its foundation. it saddens me. anyone out there feel this way?

Yeah, whooooo-hoooo, nationalism pwn3s!!!!1!!!!

I know you wanted an intelligent answer.

The idea of national pride always strikes me as a bit ridiculous, because how can you have pride in something that is basically the luck of the draw. To be born in America (or anywhere in the western world) means you hit the global jackpot. It's something you should feel fortunate for, sure, but proud....save being proud for your accomplishments in life.