[coutrout76]

Originally Posted by Silverblur

Why do you keep calling him Joyce?

I keep going with the pronunciation version, mybad.

[Interesting]

Rickson Gracie!

[YeahBee]

Originally Posted by coutrout76

I keep going with the pronunciation version, mybad.

Isn't it pronounced Hoyce?

[Ballist1x]

because the gracies are done in mma.

their discipline is too one dimensional. it worked fine when opponents did not know any better, or any way out of the moves.

You just have to watch Royce in K1 to realise that the ground game was over for him/them; for example, versus; Hideo Tokoro.

Tokoro not an outstanding guy, and even with rules to suit Gracie he couldn't get the win. Gracie kept taking him down and was unable to beat a simple defense.

MMA is about using everything to create a chance to win, i.e punch kick, damage the opponent, take them down and force them to tap..

simply trying to take someone down and submit them without wearing them out (unless you call palm strikes to the side of the head being worn out) just doesn't work any more. Fighters are too well versed on the most part to get caught in a submission without any setup work.

The level of standards in the UFC rose between like UFC 4-8 during this time Royce chose to leave, imo to escape a beating, not dissimilar to the beating he took from Matt Hughes when he did actually fight someone who would hit him hard. (set up the submission and almost get it, i.e break his arm off.)

[Snoop_the_Loop]

Personally I think the Gracie name is well enough known in the US to sell a few PPVs even if its not Royce. The problem is that the older generation is too old and the younger one is still developing. Also if you can make good money teaching + grappling then its not evevitable that you want to move into MMA.

IMHO one of the best Gracies is, and always has been, Renzo, that recent fight against Frank Shamrock being a good example. Renzo takes him down and controls him on the ground at will and basically forced Frank to find a way out. However, hes simply too old to compete wuth the best now and was probably never top ten talent even when he was younger. Tough tough guy though.

Roger is the one who might make waves in the next few years. He is one of the best grapplers of all time but is unproven in MMA, aside from submitting Ron Waterman who really played into his hands. I think he might be in the UFC in a couple of years though, I think it makes buisness sense for them to sign him if he continues to win.

[Reza Nasri]

Posted by Jayjustscrap "what i think is ironic about the Gracies (who i love and respect by the way) is that when they created the UFC to show the world that bjj was the greatest hand to hand martial art they succeeded, but they also gave other martial artists who were naturally gifted athletes the tools for countering bjj"

No they didnt. Wrestling already had all the answers and thats why the Gracie mystique of power was eventually destroyed by a pro wrestler in Kazushi Sakuraba.
Renzo Gracie's stay at the peak of MMA was ended by another wrestler Dan Henderson.
The answers for countering BJJ were there as far back as UFC 1 when Ken Shamrock succesfully sprawled in response to Royce's double leg takedown.

Personally I think the Royce of 1993-1995 was at his best in terms of aggression and pure ju jitsu and speed.

But by 2000 he was probably at his peak v Sakuraba. In that he had learned to take a hell of a punch and keep fighting. Watch UFC V and see how one big punch from Shamrock slowed him down and than watch Royce V Tokoro where Royce has his nose bloodied bad but comes back to almost finish Tokoro and in my eyes clearly win the fight on points. Its just by 2005 Royce has slowed down terribly in terms of speed