[omgitsrick]

[quote=NinjaKilla187;22438215]

Originally Posted by Gregster

Could you please point out where I or anyone else attributed some sort of exalted, deity-like stature or ability to Bruce Lee? 'Cuz I'm not finding it.

Sure. This is pure nuthuggery, courtesy of you:

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Bruce Lee researched, trained in, analyzed and absorbed a broad spectrum of fighting styles with a diligence and intensity which is as staggering today as it was almost 40 years ago. The assertion that he was just an actor with some flashy Kung Fu skills-- one which is often made around here and elsewhere-- is absolutely preposterous.
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Who is staggered? You? What "broad spectrum"? Wing Chun plus a few kicks? Wing Chun sucks and is unusable as a fighting art against anybody that knows what they are doing. What martial arts did he supposedly master and how would we know that he did so other than making movies? He didn't use the fighting styles to do any fighting. None of his students seemed to do any fighting either. JKD is a steaming pile of unusable claptrap and only marginally better than the TMA is supposed to surpass.

You are now officially blathering yourself in circles. You wanted evidence, I gave it. My contention all along is that Lee is not a fighter. Lee was a great actor and I have enjoyed his movies. He was not a martial arts fighter, a western boxer or anything other than a performance artist. His immense popularity makes it unlikely that anyone trying to make a living off of martial arts is going to come right out and says he sucked but Joe Lewis says he wasn't at boxer, created a system that claimed to be the superior fighting style but neither he nor his students ever fought using it, and that he didn't even *spar* in training with high level competition. Somehow, despite all of this you come away thinking that Joe is saying Lee was a great martial arts teacher???

I find in unlikely that you even believe this claptrap and am starting to think you are just arguing for the sake of being contrary. Your sig is seeming especially apropos.

Why don't you tell us by what criteria you would judge a superior martial artist and then how Lee meets those criteria. What does martial arts mean to you? Performance art? "Martial" means fighting and guys that don't fight, even if it is just in their own dojo, are not martial artists. They may be great performance artists but so are gymnasts, breakdancers and synchronized swimmers, all of whom are also not fighters.

He sums it up the best I've ever heard, stop nut hugging Bruce Lee.

[IrishBeatDown]

[quote=Gregster;22422879]Well then, perhaps instead of merely shooting your own mouth off, you could use some other resources which might debunk or at least call into question the stuff you find questionable.

whoah... stop drinkin the Hatorade buddy... i was serious about wiki...really...

[Gregster]

[quote=NinjaKilla187;22438215]

Originally Posted by Gregster

Could you please point out where I or anyone else attributed some sort of exalted, deity-like stature or ability to Bruce Lee? 'Cuz I'm not finding it.

Sure. This is pure nuthuggery, courtesy of you:

----------------------
Bruce Lee researched, trained in, analyzed and absorbed a broad spectrum of fighting styles with a diligence and intensity which is as staggering today as it was almost 40 years ago. The assertion that he was just an actor with some flashy Kung Fu skills-- one which is often made around here and elsewhere-- is absolutely preposterous.
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Who is staggered? You?

Sugar Ray Leonard: I wanted to do in boxing what Bruce Lee was able to do in karate.

Herb Jackson - "The biggest problem in designing equipment for Bruce was that he'd go through it so damn fast. I had to reinforce his wooden dummy with automobile parts so he could train on it without breaking it.

...The reason for the machine was simply because no one could stand up to his full force punches and kicks, Bruce's strength and skill had evolved to point where he had to fight machines. Bruce was very interested in strength training, you could say that he was obsessed with it".

Chuck Norris - "Lee, pound for pound, might well have been one of the strongest men in the world, and certainly one of the quickest".

Hayward Nishioka - "Bruce had this trademark "One Inch Punch", he could send individuals (Some of whom outweighed him by over 100lbs) flying through the air where they'd crash to the ground 15 feet away. I remember getting knocked up against the wall by that punch. I didn't think it was possible that he could generate so much power in his punch, especially when he was just laying his hand against my chest, he just twitched a bit and Wham!!!, I went flying backward and bounced off a wall. I took him very seriously after that."

Jesse Glover - "The power that Lee was capable of instantly generating was absolutely frightening to his fellow martial artists, especially his sparring partners, and his speed was equally intimidating. We timed him with an electric timer once, and Bruce's quickest movements were around five hundredths of a second, his slowest were around eight hundredths. This was punching from a relaxed position with his hands down at his sides from a distance between 18-24 inches. Not only was he amazingly quick, but he could read you too. He could pick up on small subtle things that you were getting ready to do and then he'd just shut you down".

Jhoon Rhee - "You could show him a tremendously difficult technique that took years to perfect and the next time you saw him, he would do it better than you".

Gene Lebell - "I remember one time he kicked me really hard. I remember thinking it was a good thing he only wore a size 6 shoe instead of a 14 like me, otherwise that kick would have sent me to China! He was strong for his size, lemme tell ya."

John Benn, in audio commentary on DVD of The Way of the Dragon (US title: Return of the Dragon). - When I was having dinner with Chuck [Norris] I did ask him: "If you and Bruce would be in a real fight to death, who would win?", and he said without thinking: "Bruce of course. Nobody can beat him".

Jim Kelly - Bruce, well I can basically say this. I have been around a lot of great martial arts fighters. Worked out with them. Fought them in tournaments. In my opinion Bruce Lee was the greatest martial artist who ever lived. To me thats my opinion. I think Bruce Lee is the greatest martial artist ever. I don't think anybody is in his class.

And looky here! More quotes about Bruce Lee by Joe Lewis:

SOURCE

Bruce was incredibly strong for his size. He could take a 75lb barbell and from a standing position with the barbell held flush against his chest, he could slowly stick his arms out, lock them and hold the barbell there for 20 seconds, that's pretty damn tough for a guy who at the time only weighed 138lbs. I know 200lb weight lifters who can't do that.

I never stood in front of another human who was as quick as him. He not only had the quickness but he had the inner confidence to muster the conviction to do so. I've seen others who had the speed but lack conviction or vice versa. He was like Ali, he had both. I stood before both of these men, so I know.

If Bruce Lee wasn't the greatest martial artist of all time, then certainly he is the number one candidate.

Greatest? Of "all time"? Someone should tell Joe Lewis to quit squeezing Bruce Lee's ballsack.

Or not. KNowing you, you'll probably come back and contend that just because Joe Lewis says that Bruce Lee was one of the best martial artists OF ALL TIME (an estimation of his ability which surpasses my own, and I'm supposed to be the big Bruce Lee nuthugger here) does not in any way shape or form mean that Joe Lewis though Bruce Lee could fight. Just like I'm sure that dojo ballerinas like Jim Kelly, Chuck Norris, Bob Wall, Gene LeBell, and Sugar Ray Leonard wouldn't know a fighter if they saw one.

What "broad spectrum"? Wing Chun plus a few kicks?

Uh, no Einstein. Perhaps if you could be bothered to actually pay attention to the stuff you're quoting to "prove" Bruce Lee wasn't much of a fighter-- and at this point, I wouldn't hold out any hope on it-- you might have noticed that Joe Lewis mentioned Lee's voracious appetite for studying and analyzing skilled boxers; Lewis is not the only person to have observed this. Lee was also an enthusiastic student of Judo and submission grappling, which we know (well, not everyone...like you, for instance) because Lee was working out with Gene Lebell to add grappling and ground fighting to his game. He's also known to have surveyed other kung fu styles, Okinawan karate, and even forms of combat which might seem incongruous to MA, such as fencing (Lee was interested in fencing for footwork).

Wing Chun sucks and is unusable as a fighting art against anybody that knows what they are doing.

Even if I were to accept this question-begging, baseless assertion as fact, it's still fairly irrelevant in this discussion.

If you weren't so utterly clueless you'd understand that Bruce Lee himself had grown highly dissastisfied with Wing Chun Kung Fu, which he felt was too rigid and incomplete; this was a complaint he had against most "traditional" martial arts, and this belief of his was the genesis of Jeet Kun Do.

Hence, criticizing Bruce Lee by bagging on Wing Chun is pretty useless, since Lee had moved far away from being simply a Wing Chun practitioner by the time he died.

You are now officially blathering yourself in circles. You wanted evidence, I gave it.

I asked to find a single quote from your own sources where Joe Lewis says he didn't think Bruce Lee was very good at fighting. You have done nothing but supply a bunch of quotes from Lewis where he states that Lee did not compete.

His immense popularity makes it unlikely that anyone trying to make a living off of martial arts is going to come right out and says he sucked but Joe Lewis says he wasn't at boxer...

He says he did not punch like one.

...created a system that claimed to be the superior fighting style but neither he nor his students ever fought using it, and that he didn't even *spar* in training with high level competition. Somehow, despite all of this you come away thinking that Joe is saying Lee was a great martial arts teacher???

Well, I'd be inclined to think that if one of the best competitive kickboxers of his day says that Bruce Lee influenced the skills that he used in achieving the unusually high, if not to say "iconic" level of success as a martial artist, that must mean that Bruce Lee might have had some pretty good ideas on the subject of fighting and also was pretty good at conveying them to others.

[Gregster]

Regarding the central topic of this thread: I don't know what is or is not a "Systema"-type punch.

As far as Systema being a) real and b) an effective style or complete crap:

a) So far as I know it is real, and was originally developed by the Russian (read: "Soviet," at the time) military for use by Spetsnaz teams. Specifically, Spetsnaz units that carried out dangerous, high-risk military ops.

b) I'm no expert on Systema, but from what I understand of its purpose, it's not designed for fighting in a ring or defending yourself against belligerent drunken assholes who think you're eyeballing their girlfriend in a bar. Rather, I understand it's designed for taking people the fuck out for good.

If I'm right, then I think it logically follows that the liabilities involved in starting up a school that teaches "real" Systema to anyone with the time and money to do so would be a bit risky.

Beyond that: I also think that Systema is one of those things (like Ninjutsu in the '80s) so clouded in mystery, myth, and just plain bullshit that there's not much stopping anyone from watching a few DVDs or YouTube videos devoted to Systema, effecting a Russian accent, buying some Russian camo pants, alluding to unverifiable membership in some clandestine Russian commando unit ("I could tell you, but I'd have to kill you.") and bilking the unwary and the gullible out of their money teaching them complete bullshit.

That said, I'd be wary of anyone claiming to teach it.

[LiverpoolJim]

Originally Posted by NinjaKilla187

Fedor = professional fighter

Bruce Lee = actor

Alot of that hit with "these two knuckles" or "these three knuckles" stuff works great punching flat and stationary targets (makiwara) but the human head is roundish, irregular and usually moving. If you land a hard shot square on the pinkie finger knuckle you are likely going to break a ****carpal, don't do that. Otherwise I am not convinced it makes much difference. Focus on keeping the wrist straight and strong and don't worry about your knuckles.

what he said

also, fedors punching style is very effective for mma, its extremly accurate (see his GnP, does he ever miss?)

[Never_Back_Down]

Originally Posted by NinjaKilla187

And why exactly can you say that? Bruce Lee had exactly zero professional fights.

what kind of professional fights were there back then?

Does it take Bruce Lee to beat SRR in boxing to be considered the best?

[NinjaKilla187]

Originally Posted by Never_Back_Down

what kind of professional fights were there back then?

Does it take Bruce Lee to beat SRR in boxing to be considered the best?

Are you serious? Have you even been following the thread up till now? Ever heard of Mas Oyama, Joe Lewis, Benny Urquidez, Chuck Norris or the like? Not to mention the boxers of the era. Have any idea what they were up to while Lee was making chop-sockey movies and TV shows?

What are you talking about SRR? Lee never even beat a Golden Gloves guy or the worlds biggest can. He never beat any credible competitor at any level of any combat sport at any time.

I had boxing coach with like a 30-15 am record and an 0-2 pro record and you know what? *That* guy was a fucking fighter, and a damn good coach. He taught stuff that he had used to win fights and that had been used by a thousand fighters before him to win fights unlike Bruce Lee.

[NinjaKilla187]

[quote=Gregster;22443826][quote=NinjaKilla187;22438215]

[b]Sugar Ray Leonard: I wanted to do in boxing what Bruce Lee was able to do in karate.

*edited for length*

/QUOTE]

Well, since you are seemingly so enamored of guys with great strength and speed who don't actually fight anyone, I have a list of nominees for Gregster's all time Martial Arts Non-Fighting HOF:

1) Sawao Kato, possibly the greatest male gymnast of all time. 8 Olympic gold medals and 12 overall.

2) Marion Jones, 5 time Olympic Track and Field Medalist, with a little help from modern chemistry...

3) Zhuang Zedong, 3 time Ping Pong world champion with amaaaaaazing reflexes and hand-eye coordination.

4) Hsieh Tsung-Ting, world champion powerlifter in the -60KG division.

I could go on and on but why bother? You know what each of these people did that Bruce Lee never did? They actually competed in their chosen sport against other high level athletes and won.

There's a reason we fight the fights. If you went to a MMA or Boxing match and instead of a fight you saw two guys in ninja costumes doing bench presses and snatching coins out of a referee's hands, would the winner be a "martial arts master"? I'm just asking the question. Now you can post another page of wiki spam that don't answer it...

*edit to correct spelling*

[blanko]

Originally Posted by Never_Back_Down

what kind of professional fights were there back then?

Does it take Bruce Lee to beat SRR in boxing to be considered the best?

there were boxing fights, kickboxing, pro karate, K. Karate, muay thai...

[Kaliree]

This is my first post, but it seemed like a good place to interject. No matter what you may think of his acting (or ludicrously exaggerated mythos), Chuck Norris was a tough and skilled fighter. He was certainly one of the best of his day, and his dedication to continue training and evolving his skills (Even in his late 60's!) is admirable, to say the least. Chuck was very good friends with Bruce, and they trained together. Yes, they even sparred together, according to Chuck, and contrary to the uncited quote from Joe Lewis earlier. Chuck says that Bruce was incredibly fast and strong, and that he mastered skills astoundingly fast. I have thrown in many of the specific adjectives, but Chuck did tout him as one of the strongest and fastest, pound for pound fighters in the world. Chuck said that he showed Bruce a spinning hook kick, and within two weeks, Bruce was doing them as well he was. That's really saying something, considering Chuck was five or six time National Karate Champ at the time. If Bruce could train and absorb techniques, and their applications, that quickly - he certainly could have been a fantastic fighter. Bruce was definitely gifted, however, he did not compete. I believe he would have been devastating if he had, but he didn't, according to Chuck. Bruce was also a very small man. Muhammad Ali, while a tremendously talented athlete himself, would probably not have been able to achieve the level of proportional strength and skill that Lee had. Yet, Ali would have most certainly beat Lee in the ring, and it would only have been by a fortunate circumstance that Lee would have defeated Ali out of the ring. For more of Chuck's thoughts on Bruce, and for the source of my commentary, please read Chuck's article.

Lee was not "The Greatest", nor is Fedor, or Ali (contrary to his repeated claim), Tyson, Joe Louis, the other great Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris, Randy Couture, GSP, BJ Penn, Anderson Silva, or anyone else you would like to propose. I trained under a man who fought at the Olympic level on a regular basis, fighting some of the best in the world, and he shared a piece of wisdom that I have really valued -

"When you compete and take the win, or 1st place, you aren't the best fighter, you were just the better fighter that day. Tomorrow, you could fight that same guy and lose."

And one more quote that I don't recall the source, but it was still true -

"No one is the best. No matter how great someone is, there is always someone better."

For those who would argue that last quote, I would say this: If there isn't always someone better, then there is always someone with the style to beat a better fighter. Teddy Atlus (one of Mike Tyson's former trainers and boxing expert on ESPN) says that "Styles make fights," and no matter what form of competition you are referring to - that holds true.

G'day gentlemen. And please show some kindness to each other.