[NinjaKilla187]

Originally Posted by Bullitt68

Joe Lewis is wrong.

From Chuck Norris' article on April 1st of this year: http://www.townhall.com/columnists/C...e_vs_me?page=1

Why can't it ever be, "He was an incredibly fast and strong athlete and it would've been a pleasure to have watched him compete?" Why do discussions about Bruce Lee always degenerate into people insulting one another?

Bruce Lee was a friend of Chuck's and Chuck says nothing but very nice things about his friends.

Chuck Norris is seriously the super nicest guy that ever lived and says nothing but good about everybody. So much so that back in the late 80's when Steven Seagal (another martial arts "master" that never fought anybody) started going around talking shit about Chuck and saying he could kick his ass, Chuck refused to say anything about it in public but privately said he wished Seagal would challenge so he could beat him up.

Segal talked so much shit and Chuck refused to stoop to his level and finally in 1992, Bob Wall (Chuck's best friend) put together the so called "Dirty Dozen" (actually 7 guys, Bob Wall, Jim Harrison, Allen Steen, Bill Wallace, Howard Jackson, William Rodriguez and Roger Carpenter) of the greatest Karate fighters and called Segal out in Black Belt magazine. Seagal apologized and that was that.

Saying Lee wasn't a fighter is not a insult to the man, just a statement of fact. Just like saying I am not a doctor is not a insult to me. He was by all accounts an honorable, decent man who was an exciting actor.

The man was a pioneer in cross training, and encouraged his students to challenge Traditional Martial Arts orthodoxy and to reject what doesn't work. I've studied JKD and personally I don't think it works. Using the "philosophy of JKD" I've moved on to other styles that don't include any JKD.

But the "Legend of Bruce Lee" has become Traditional Martial Arts orthodoxy and people get very upset when you challenge it.

[StikyIcky]

[quote=NinjaKilla187;22478849]

Originally Posted by ShotokanBB'n'MB

In 1987 I got in a completely pointless streetfight with a very good boxer and got tooled. I danced around landing tons of half power kicks and throwing some very ineffective point fighting style snapping backfists. He used footwork, head movement, a stiff jab and a nice right cross to beat my ass. I fought exactly like I did in tournaments and, truth be told, if there had been tournament scoring I would likely have won. In a real fight I got my ass kicked.

Ironically, Bruce Lee got into many street fights, on sets of movies, in the streets, etc. Some big ass asian dude who was an extra from Enter the Dragon, who was an accomplished martial artist got his ass kicked by Bruce Lee. Read that story, it's a good one.
Also, on the set of "The Big Boss", Bruce Lee nearly killed a guy who came to avenge his brother's beatdown.
He was getting challenged all the time. By people with your mentality.

So maybe you need to stop the hate. The reason why Bruce Lee would not compete is because of the many restrictive rules in ANY common martial arts tournament at that time. Exactly the reason you got beat up by the boxer is why he opposed the tournaments at the time. Most of them had little relevance to self defense. Also, Muay Thai was completely closed off to foreigners and Vale Tudo was very underground and known to local fighting clubs only. There really was NOTHING resembling current day MMA. Chuck Norris in his prime, whom you praise, would get taken down, mounted and TKOed by any current day amateur fighter. That's why he praised Bruce Lee, he realized that the man had a much better understanding of a real fight, along with the training, knowledge & immense physical ability.

Bruce Lee was more of a fighter than some of the current day boxers & MMA stars, who will not fight outside their respective sport. He truly believed anything goes in the street. ANYTHING! And he has had to fight by rules imposed by the combatants themselves, rather than some commission or ref.

[NinjaKilla187]

[quote=StikyIcky;22594562]

Originally Posted by NinjaKilla187

Ironically, Bruce Lee got into many street fights, on sets of movies, in the streets, etc. *edited* Bruce Lee was more of a fighter than some of the current day boxers & MMA stars, who will not fight outside their respective sport. He truly believed anything goes in the street. ANYTHING! And he has had to fight by rules imposed by the combatants themselves, rather than some commission or ref.

You are recycling the same tired excuses. Even if Lee did defeat mysterious unnamed opponents, this hardly justifies including him among fighting masters due to the unknown qualities of his supposed opponents.

I have been in about 20 "real" fights and by my own judgment am have a record of 17-2-1 in those despite my slightly above average history in amateur competition and no history of professional competition. Nobody considers me to be a martial arts "master" because frankly most of those "real" fights were against untrained, drunken shitheads. The kind of morons that challenge actors to fights on sets are not typically professional or even high level amateur competitors. If defeating a few intoxicated mental defectives with no history of competitive success equal martial arts mastery then I will have my own wing in the BB HOF.

Most, if not all, martial arts have some techniques that are too dangerous to be used in competition. As much as people try to pretend they are "ancient secrets" they are pretty common; eye strikes, groin and throat strikes, pressure points etc. Martial Arts that practice aliveness and competition still train these deadly techniques but do not allow them in competition.

The vast majority of Lee's fighting style is just punches, kicks and defense, though, and why shouldn't he have at least tested those in competition against skilled opponents? Adding deadly street fighting techniques to these improved striking and defensive skills would result in the most effective overall art, would it not?

Plenty of other martial artists of his era did this.

Again, there is no "hate". I have nothing but respect and admiration for Lee. I don't understand the somewhat cultish obsession some fans seem to have and I am not inclined to give him posthumous credit for being a fighter when there is no objectively reliable history of him fighting quality opponents.

[StikyIcky]

[quote=NinjaKilla187;22598053]

Originally Posted by StikyIcky

You are recycling the same tired excuses. Even if Lee did defeat mysterious unnamed opponents, this hardly justifies including him among fighting masters due to the unknown qualities of his supposed opponents.

I have been in about 20 "real" fights and by my own judgment am have a record of 17-2-1 in those despite my slightly above average history in amateur competition and no history of professional competition. Nobody considers me to be a martial arts "master" because frankly most of those "real" fights were against untrained, drunken shitheads. The kind of morons that challenge actors to fights on sets are not typically professional or even high level amateur competitors. If defeating a few intoxicated mental defectives with no history of competitive success equal martial arts mastery then I will have my own wing in the BB HOF.

Most, if not all, martial arts have some techniques that are too dangerous to be used in competition. As much as people try to pretend they are "ancient secrets" they are pretty common; eye strikes, groin and throat strikes, pressure points etc. Martial Arts that practice aliveness and competition still train these deadly techniques but do not allow them in competition.

The vast majority of Lee's fighting style is just punches, kicks and defense, though, and why shouldn't he have at least tested those in competition against skilled opponents? Adding deadly street fighting techniques to these improved striking and defensive skills would result in the most effective overall art, would it not?

Plenty of other martial artists of his era did this.

Again, there is no "hate". I have nothing but respect and admiration for Lee. I don't understand the somewhat cultish obsession some fans seem to have and I am not inclined to give him posthumous credit for being a fighter when there is no objectively reliable history of him fighting quality opponents.

Actually the guys who challenged him on set were experienced martial artists, some of which were accomplished. Who do you think they hired for MA movies back then? On the set of Big Boss he did almost kill a guy that came after him due to some old trouble from back in the day. This was well depicted in the movie "The Dragon". And this story did not come from Bruce Lee, this was based on eye witness testimony.

You may choose to believe it or not. But what I notice in your tone is A LOT of bias. Think logically, don't you think Bruce Lee was challenged nonstop once his name hit the mainstream? Don't you think he would have been exposed quickly if he was ducking fighters left and right?
He was a fighter as much as he could be, considering that there was nothing like current day MMA competition available to him.

[NinjaKilla187]

[quote=StikyIcky;22601132]

Originally Posted by NinjaKilla187

Actually the guys who challenged him on set were experienced martial artists, some of which were accomplished. Who do you think they hired for MA movies back then? On the set of Big Boss he did almost kill a guy that came after him due to some old trouble from back in the day. This was well depicted in the movie "The Dragon". And this story did not come from Bruce Lee, this was based on eye witness testimony.

You may choose to believe it or not. But what I notice in your tone is A LOT of bias. Think logically, don't you think Bruce Lee was challenged nonstop once his name hit the mainstream? Don't you think he would have been exposed quickly if he was ducking fighters left and right?
He was a fighter as much as he could be, considering that there was nothing like current day MMA competition available to him.

Really? Please provide the names and fight records for these "accomplished martial artists".

Logically, if Lee was challenged non-stop he could have said "sure pal, meet me at the (insert reputable point or full contact fighting event here), and we will see who has the best Kung Fu!" He did not.

This is widely done throughout the martial arts community. This is exactly the way the Steven Seagal's bullshit and bluster was handled. This is not what Lee did.

Your contention that the only reason he didn't fight is because it wasn't "MMA" is retarded. He claimed his kicking, punching and defense were superior. He could have proven their claimed superiority and did not.

He demonstrated these techniques all over the world against willing "role players" but never against resisting opponents. What "MMA" did he demonstrate? Please provide video.

Legions of guys that can bend spoons with their minds, do two-finger pushups, break bricks and do "one inch punches" have proven to be completely ineffectual in a real fight. We will never know if Lee *could* have performed well against high level competition. What we do know is that he *didn't* perform at all against any level of competition that can be obejectively evaluated.

[blanko]

[quote=StikyIcky;22601132]

Originally Posted by NinjaKilla187

Actually the guys who challenged him on set were experienced martial artists, some of which were accomplished. Who do you think they hired for MA movies back then? On the set of Big Boss he did almost kill a guy that came after him due to some old trouble from back in the day. This was well depicted in the movie "The Dragon". And this story did not come from Bruce Lee, this was based on eye witness testimony.

You may choose to believe it or not. But what I notice in your tone is A LOT of bias. Think logically, don't you think Bruce Lee was challenged nonstop once his name hit the mainstream? Don't you think he would have been exposed quickly if he was ducking fighters left and right?
He was a fighter as much as he could be, considering that there was nothing like current day MMA competition available to him.

this is such bullshit. John Bluming was a REAL crosstraining martial artists/fighter that actually fought in judo/kk and then created a mixed style. Bruce lee wasn't the ONLY GUY WHO DID IT, he was however in cool movies that allowed him to get attention.

Jon Bluming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

10th dan in KK and JUDO. RESPECT!

[cockysprinter]

Originally Posted by Bullitt68

Joe Lewis is wrong.

From Chuck Norris' article on April 1st of this year: Townhall.com::Bruce Lee vs. Me::By Chuck Norris

as far as joe lewis goes, i would take what he says with a grain of salt. over the years, his comments towards bruce have been somewhat derogatory. however, he recently made a book about mastering 'bruve lees fighting method' where he praises bruce as amazing.

[Bullitt68]

Originally Posted by cockysprinter

as far as joe lewis goes, i would take what he says with a grain of salt. over the years, his comments towards bruce have been somewhat derogatory. however, he recently made a book about mastering 'bruve lees fighting method' where he praises bruce as amazing.

He seems like a very erratic interviewee. Sometimes there is a lot of spite in his interviews, and then in others, he has nothing but good things to say about Bruce.

You never know which Joe you're going to get when the topic is Bruce Lee, admiring or denigrating.

[The_Bear]

Originally Posted by NinjaKilla187

Back in "his day" there were real fighters fighting "real fights", Kyokushin and other promotions. Bruce Lee chose not to compete in either full contact, point style fighting or boxing at a major competitive level. He was a great actor, promoter, writer and teacher but he was not a fighter.

The primary attribute of a fighter is the willingness to fight, and, outside of a handful of highly suspect anecdotal street fights, Bruce Lee never fought a serious competitor.

according to mutlple fighters and compeitors he was seen by them or had themselves beaten by Lee.

[Never_Back_Down]

Originally Posted by blanko

there were boxing fights, kickboxing, pro karate, K. Karate, muay thai...

i meant prizefighting where the money and salary gives you an incentive to train ful time