Official Professional Wrestling Discussion VII

[Falcondice]

Originally Posted by BrooklynBomber

The ROH roster has to throw stiff punches and kicks to make it look good.

Don't be a retard. I hate ROH, but that's an asinine comment. All of ROH's guys who can make their work look good can do so regardless of how stiff or how light they're working. Also, "the WWE roster has to throw light punches and kicks to make it look good." Seewhatididthere? Yeah. It's one thing to have a problem with a promotion but it's unnecessary and typical of North American smarks to say silly shit like that in a poor attempt to justify their disagreement or dislike.

Besides. Almost everyone has to throw stiff punches and kicks to make their punches and kicks look good. Almost nobody who works light does so convincingly, and certainly nobody in WWE who works light does so convincingly to anyone who isn't six years old or handicapped.

[White Snake]

Originally Posted by bringbakpridefc

That was actually early 99 when nash did become booker besides I don't think the nwo were relevant in late 98 were they?

The wolfpac were very popular but the real Nwo black and white around that time was filled with the stevie rays of the world wrestling on thunder

It was late-98 when Nash was booker and conveniently ended Goldberg's undefeated streak

[BrooklynBomber]

Originally Posted by Falcondice

Don't be a retard. I hate ROH, but that's an asinine comment. All of ROH's guys who can make their work look good can do so regardless of how stiff or how light they're working. Also, "the WWE roster has to throw light punches and kicks to make it look good." Seewhatididthere? Yeah. It's one thing to have a problem with a promotion but it's unnecessary and typical of North American smarks to say silly shit like that in a poor attempt to justify their disagreement or dislike.

Besides. Almost everyone has to throw stiff punches and kicks to make their punches and kicks look good. Almost nobody who works light does so convincingly, and certainly nobody in WWE who works light does so convincingly to anyone who isn't six years old or handicapped.

Have you ever watched the WWE or ROH?

When you have to throw stiff shots to make them look good you can't work, because you're hurting the guy you're working with and thats the entire antithesis of the art.

Stan Hansen for example couldn't work. Was it because of his poor eyesight? Sure, but the fact remains he had to throw stiff strikes and that's not working.

[Big Burly]

I think eliminating someone from the title of "worker" because of stiffness is taking things a bit far.

I agree that you should protect your fellow wrestler at all costs so they can make money for their family, and so you can as well.

AFAIK, Stan Hansen used stiff strikes, but his mat wrestling was sound, even very good. I haven't heard of Stan injuring folks legit excessively. (Other than the Bruno incident, that is)

A stiff worker who is sloppy and does injure his opponents, like Ahmed Johnson, deserves being called a poor worker.

So, BB, do you poo-poo entire Japanese wrestling organizations because they use stiff strikes?

I'm not trying to argue, I just feel that BB is being a little narrow-minded.

(And he drug Stan Hansen thru the mud, who is a personal favorite)

[Francis Rossi]

Originally Posted by Big Burly

So, BB, do you poo-poo entire Japanese wrestling organizations because they use stiff strikes?

Whilst I enjoy watching it, there is a downside to it. Misawa, for instance. Even without him, look at the physical mess guys like Kenta Kobashi and Keiji Mutoh are in. Strong style takes it's toll. I know Lance Storm isn't much of a fan, solely because it's not working.

[D.R.H.]

Originally Posted by BrooklynBomber

Have you ever watched the WWE or ROH?

When you have to throw stiff shots to make them look good you can't work, because you're hurting the guy you're working with and thats the entire antithesis of the art.

Stan Hansen for example couldn't work. Was it because of his poor eyesight? Sure, but the fact remains he had to throw stiff strikes and that's not working.

Weren't you the guy who just made an empassioned speech trying to get us to vote Vader into the HOF, and used his exceptional workrate as a reason as to why?

[DannyBoy1985]

Originally Posted by Big Burly

I think eliminating someone from the title of "worker" because of stiffness is taking things a bit far.

I agree that you should protect your fellow wrestler at all costs so they can make money for their family, and so you can as well.

AFAIK, Stan Hansen used stiff strikes, but his mat wrestling was sound, even very good. I haven't heard of Stan injuring folks legit excessively. (Other than the Bruno incident, that is)

A stiff worker who is sloppy and does injure his opponents, like Ahmed Johnson, deserves being called a poor worker.

So, BB, do you poo-poo entire Japanese wrestling organizations because they use stiff strikes?

I'm not trying to argue, I just feel that BB is being a little narrow-minded.

(And he drug Stan Hansen thru the mud, who is a personal favorite)

Well there was the time Stan was stiffing Vader so hard (of course Vader was stiffing him back as well) that he knock Vader's eye out of the socket. That's pretty bad or excessive when you knock someone's eye out of the socket, though Vader did push it back in. Still, i agree with you, Stan Hansen certainly wasn't a bad worker. I enjoy watching Stan, and am a fan of his the same as you.

I agree with most of what BrooklynBomber says that ive seen, but i will have to disagree that wrestlers who work stiff are bad workers. Though at the same time, i agree with Franco Rossi, the Japanese strong style/continually working stiff throughout a career take it's toll. Of course, a long career in pro wrestling period, whether you work light or stiff, will take it's toll as well. And then some wrestlers aren't even around very long before their body is all tore up. So i don't know, i guess a good way to put it is that pro wrestling is just a risky business in general, no matter how you work.

[DannyBoy1985]

Originally Posted by zane

Ugh ECW has always been overrated place where 90% of the roster couldn't work their way out of a fucking wet paper bag. That company helped kill aspects of the business so damned quick, and devalued so many fucking things.

I disagree, ECW had plenty of good workers and talented guys work for the company. Over the years they had the likes of Eddie Gilbert, Jimmy Snuka, Don Muraco, Tito Santana, Johnny Hotbody, Doug Gilbert, Shane Douglas, Chris Candido, Terry Funk, Kevin Sullivan, Cactus Jack, 2 Cold Scorpio, Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerrero, Dean Malenko, Perry Saturn, Rey Mysterio Jr., Chris Benoit, Brian Lee, Psicosis, La Parka, Juventud Guerrera, Mikey Whipwreck, Steve Austin, Louie Spicolli, Tommy Rich, The Sheik, Tracy Smothers, Doug Furnas, Phil Lafon, John Kronus, Gary Wolfe, Bam Bam Bigelow, Rob Van Dam, Lance Storm, Jerry Lynn, Steve Corino, Jack Victory, Dusty Rhodes, Raven, The Dudley Boyz, Mike Awesome, Masato Tanaka, Little Guido, Taz, Simon Diamond, Yoshihiro Tajiri, Super Crazy, Kid Kash. And im probably forgetting some.

[punkmother]

Originally Posted by DannyBoy1985

I disagree, ECW had plenty of good workers and talented guys work for the company. Over the years they had the likes of Eddie Gilbert, Jimmy Snuka, Don Muraco, Tito Santana, Johnny Hotbody, Doug Gilbert, Shane Douglas, Chris Candido, Terry Funk, Kevin Sullivan, Cactus Jack, 2 Cold Scorpio, Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerrero, Dean Malenko, Perry Saturn, Rey Mysterio Jr., Chris Benoit, Brian Lee, Psicosis, La Parka, Juventud Guerrera, Mikey Whipwreck, Steve Austin, Louie Spicolli, Tommy Rich, The Sheik, Tracy Smothers, Doug Furnas, Phil Lafon, John Kronus, Gary Wolfe, Bam Bam Bigelow, Rob Van Dam, Lance Storm, Jerry Lynn, Steve Corino, Jack Victory, Dusty Rhodes, Raven, The Dudley Boyz, Mike Awesome, Masato Tanaka, Little Guido, Taz, Simon Diamond, Yoshihiro Tajiri, Super Crazy, Kid Kash. And im probably forgetting some.

you are arguing with somebody that hs never actually watched ecw. all he knows is what he has heard about from jerry lawler.

[Falcondice]

Well firstly, there's no such thing as "strong style." Secondly, Kobashi and Mutoh are in the shape they're in not because of stiff strikes but because of a career of inherently knee-destroying moonsaults and taking a lot of run-of-the-mill bumps. Thirdly, Lance Storm is horrifically overrated and I would never listen to his opinion on anything least of all quality wrestling, because I've never seen a great Lance Storm match. Who the fuck is Lance Storm (or Raven, or any of those guys) to criticise somebody such as Kobashi because he works "too stiff?" Compared to Kawada, Lance Storm is a fucking nobody and he doesn't know anything.

Originally Posted by BrooklynBomber

Have you ever watched the WWE or ROH?

When you have to throw stiff shots to make them look good you can't work, because you're hurting the guy you're working with and thats the entire antithesis of the art.

Stan Hansen for example couldn't work. Was it because of his poor eyesight? Sure, but the fact remains he had to throw stiff strikes and that's not working.

That's just ridiculous. I think most people who are familiar with Hansen's body of work will tell you he was more than a fine worker. For a guy who was half blind and who worked most of his over career with people who he didn't even speak the same language as, I would say he was a better worker than a great many pro wrestlers.

And name me one guy who can throw dead-on realistic light strikes. Like, so realistic they'd fool an avid MMA fan. Nobody can. Because the simple fact is that working light never looks as realistic as working stiff. The real art isn't in throwing an obviously fake kick and having the opponent throw himself across the ring to sell it, like a silly cartoon. The real art is in kicking somebody in the face full contact, but doing it safely so that they suffer no injury or ill effect. Just because you're hitting hard, it doesn't mean it has to be dangerous.

If you want to get into the (frankly, very softcock) argument that causing your opponent legit pain in a pro wrestling match is bad, then every pro wrestler in the last hundred years fails because taking bumps hurts. I really don't see how the pain you inflict by throwing somebody through the air and having them take a bump is any worse than the pain you inflict by safely throwing a stiff soccer kick at their face. In fact, I know of many pro wrestlers who are too broken down to go, and they're not broken down from taking stiff strikes, they're broken down from bumps. Aforementioned Mutoh and Kobashi for example. And teh hawtness, who's taken as many stiff shots as anyone ever has in pro wrestling, has been forced into practical retirement not from those, but because his back is too messed up to bump.

I think your points are the same archaic points WWE marks have been making for as long as they realised that there are pro wrestlers out there who have a passion for giving pro wrestling a little bit of legitimacy, none of whom are employed by Vince Jr. It's like a "if you don't do things the way the WWE main event guys do then you don't know anything about pro wrestling" mentality. Well, before pro wrestlers decided to avoid making each other uncomfortable as much as possible, they wailed on each other when they did business; so I would even go so far as to say that if anything, the guys complaining about kids working too stiff are the guys who are in the wrong here.

And anyway. Some of those guys who are in the biz and who complain about that stuff are just hypocrites. Lance Storm complaining about kids being too stiff? I'm like, lol, sure thing, go dump somebody on their neck with another dragon suplex and dish out another thrust kick buddy. Raven complaining about kids not knowing how to work? That's hilarious, like I'm thinking, yeah right, go throw somebody into thumbtacks, retard. Know what I mean? I also just have to say that it's funny that Raven has an entire DVD set about how to work, and shoot interviews where he sits down and criticises so many young guys. I don't think there's any footage of Raven ever having a good pro wrestling match in his entire life, and I don't think he's been involved in any match in the last five years that wasn't garbage wrestling. I digress though, enough ranting.