[D.R.H.]

Originally Posted by KoscheckBaby

Think of the storylines he killed and the wrestlers he kept down. I have a hard time thinking business would have been worse with him gone. Morale would have been better and bigger storylines could have came in.

If not Shawn, it would have been the rest of the kliq. Besides, at the end of the day, Vince was till booking garbage for most of that period, and that was what made the shows suck and the fans leave. Nothing would have changed if Shawn had been fired. Until Vince fully committed to the attitude era, it wouldn't have mattered who was in the top spot.

[KoscheckBaby]

Originally Posted by ****lfan

what storylines did he ruin

We'll never know. But it really seems irresponsible as fuck that Vince didn't fire his ass. Once the Clique was gone, Shawn Michaels should have been gang beaten at every opportunity behind the scenes at least

[flowwiththego]

Originally Posted by BrooklynBomber

Flair btw never jobbed to Barry Windham, Magnum TA, Ricky Morton, Lex Luger, Nikita Koloff, Muta, or several others whom he was asked to, and in some cases drop the belt to.

The only reason Flair ever dropped the belt at all was because he knew he'd get it back because the booking committee was made up of his friends.

How many times is the NWA champion supposed to job? Seriuosly. How many times did Thesz do the job? How bout Dory, when he was champion? The only one he refused to job to out of that group was Luger when Sting blew his knee out and Flair promised Sting he would drop the belt to him when he came back. He lost on national tv via clean pinfall to Ricky Morton to ignite his feud with him. Magnum TA was being groomed to win the title from Flair until his car accident ended his career. Nikita was never seriously considered for the title because of his limitations as a worker.
Two months ago Dave Meltzer wrote that nobody in the history of the business has put over more talent than Ric Flair. But here we have a moderator on Sherdog.com saying otherwise. Hmm, who has more credibility? Look, I am not going to change your mind about Flair but half the time you outright lie about him. You call him scum and Dic like you know him and he didn't pay your mother child support but the fact is you know nothing about him, Shawn, Buzz, or anybody else. I would venture to say that if you were not a mod you would get banned for the personal attacks you spew.

[rncgnp]

wow...

[Saku4me]

Originally Posted by ****lfan

what storylines did he ruin

- I know Jarrett hates HBK because HBK wouldn't let him have an IC run and Jarrett left the WWF.
- HBK wouldn't let Shane Douglas get a title run either and Douglas left WWF (forfeited title to Douglas and Douglas immediately lost it to Ramon)
- HBK, with a bad back, wouldn't give Austin the title until 'Taker forced him to.
- Bulldog's dying sister was in the crowd for One Night Only and HBK decided to talk to Vince and HBK got to win the title as Bulldog's sister wanted to see his brother win a WWF title (she wasn't there in 1992 when Bulldog beat Hart).


Let's look at his titles:

- Forfeited 1 World title (in 1997 after losing his smile and having a career threatening knee injury that needed surgery yet HBK came back less than 3 months later without ever having any surgery)

- Forfeited 1 IC belt due to injury because of the Syracuse incident, although he could've defended the belt within a 3 week period and the belt was awarded to Shane Douglas who then was forced to jobbed that same night to Ramon. HBK later returned within the next month to work a match with Owen Hart.

- Forfeited 3 Tag titles. Forfeited two tag title reigns with Diesel without defending. Then forfeited another with Steve Austin.

- Lost 1 IC belt to fellow Kliq member, Razor Ramon.

- Loses 1 Euro title to HHH, fellow Kliq member.

So from June 1993 to HBK's retirement in 1998, HBK won 9 titles and he lost 2 titles cleanly to fellow Kliq members and then lost 5 without ever defending the titles. So he successfully defended only 2 of his 9 titles to non-Kliq members (Austin and Sid). That's all there is to it

The man can wrestle and is arguably the best in-ring performer ever but during the 90s, there was no bigger ass than HBK.



So there you go. 5 of his 9 titles that he won in the 90s, he lost without defending.



As for Flair, we all have our opinions just as we do with any other wrestler. I felt he was very repetitive in the ring and I rate guys like HBK and Hart over Flair in the ring anyday but Flair's longevity, titles won, and consistency puts him over the top. Even though I don't care much for Flair, I can't take anything away from what he's accomplished and he's a true legend and one of the 5-6 guys who can legitimately argue for the title as the GOAT in the US. To call Flair scum is just too much. Don't like a guy, that's fine but to call a guy with Flair's credentials scum is just crap.

[White Snake]

HBK also wouldnt job to Owen Hart for no other reason other than he was Bret's brother, back when Owen badly needed that big win.

[Saku4me]

Originally Posted by White Snake

HBK also wouldnt job to Owen Hart for no other reason other than he was Bret's brother, back when Owen badly needed that big win.

As Batista said "Shawn Michaels doesn't do jobs" referring to HBK's old days.

[rncgnp]

Originally Posted by Saku4me

As Batista said "Shawn Michaels doesn't do jobs" referring to HBK's old days.

i wonder how many people actually knew what Batista was talking about when he said that. im obviously talking about the just average fans, not the s/marks like us

[KoscheckBaby]

Throw in guys like Bam Bam and Vader that left the WWF and never got really pushed based on Michaels action. There was never a huge monster heel in the business at the time, since Michaels didn't help create any. I always wonder if Sid's title win using the camera was just window-dressing for him to get it back in San Antonio. I don't even consider that a job, since it took getting nailed with a camera. Seriously, does Sid, who could probably curl more than Shawn Michaels benches, need to whack him with a video camera to win?

[White Snake]

Originally Posted by rncgnp

i wonder how many people actually knew what Batista was talking about when he said that. im obviously talking about the just average fans, not the s/marks like us

I'm guessing 97% of the people in the audience that show had no idea what Batista meant. It was kind of like that one Nitro where Eric Bischoff made references to softball and scissors at Sid Vicious.