Jesus Didn't Tap tshirt question.

[johnkreese]

Originally Posted by jjspecialist

So you only looked at the carbon dating link? what about the grand canyon? what about the Bible and how it is accurate?


These links that I posted show that the Bible is accurate with what it says and that it can show the future.

Fulfilled Prophecy: Evidence for the Reliability of the Bible | Reasons To Believe

First of all, I answered this a long time ago. The Grand canyon was created by erosion from the Colorado river that lasted 3-6 million years, which still flows in the west of the canyon at an average pace of 4 miles per hour till this day.


There will always be catastrophic events. It's easy to predict one using a general metaphor. Here, I'll make one.... "Shit will blow up." I bet there will be, somewhere in the world tomorrow, an event that will involve an explosion. Or, maybe something really catastrophic within the next 300 years. All those "prophecies" are vague and outlandish attempts. I think 99 percent of us will agree that one day the world will start war with each other. It's only a matter of time, and it's been going on for since the dawn of humanity(and probably before).

For ex:

"Some time before 500 B.C. the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26). He further predicted that the Messiah would be "cut off," killed, and that this event would take place prior to a second destruction of Jerusalem. Abundant documentation shows that these prophecies were perfectly fulfilled in the life (and crucifixion) of Jesus Christ. The decree regarding the restoration of Jerusalem was issued by Persia's King Artaxerxes to the Hebrew priest Ezra in 458 B.C., 483 years later the ministry of Jesus Christ began in Galilee. (Remember that due to calendar changes, the date for the start of Christ's ministry is set by most historians at about 26 A.D. Also note that from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. is just one year.) Jesus' crucifixion occurred only a few years later, and about four decades later, in 70 A.D. came the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus."

Okay, some crazy bible reading dude is going to claim he's the "son of god." Because of this "prophecy" 483 years later(with the help of the priests who calculated a lot of this history), a Jewish Shepard claimed to be the son of God, and to have been born without his mom having sex. With any civilization, when you display different view points, you tend to be chastised. Because this 'man' was running around giving sermons telling the Jews their religion is wrong, guess who had the Romans kill him? Exactly. They didn't mention a crucifixion, just a public gathering where he'd be killed - which was common back then. Even US prisoners die in front of a little audience nowadays.

[witt1021]

Originally Posted by peteyandjia

He may have tapped verbally, not sure.

Either way he fucking lost.

lol he sure did

[jjspecialist]

Originally Posted by johnkreese

First of all, I answered this a long time ago. The Grand canyon was created by erosion from the Colorado river that lasted 3-6 million years, which still flows in the west of the canyon at an average pace of 4 miles per hour till this day.


There will always be catastrophic events. It's easy to predict one using a general metaphor. Here, I'll make one.... "Shit will blow up." I bet there will be, somewhere in the world tomorrow, an event that will involve an explosion. Or, maybe something really catastrophic within the next 300 years. All those "prophecies" are vague and outlandish attempts. I think 99 percent of us will agree that one day the world will start war with each other. It's only a matter of time, and it's been going on for since the dawn of humanity(and probably before).

For ex:

"Some time before 500 B.C. the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26). He further predicted that the Messiah would be "cut off," killed, and that this event would take place prior to a second destruction of Jerusalem. Abundant documentation shows that these prophecies were perfectly fulfilled in the life (and crucifixion) of Jesus Christ. The decree regarding the restoration of Jerusalem was issued by Persia's King Artaxerxes to the Hebrew priest Ezra in 458 B.C., 483 years later the ministry of Jesus Christ began in Galilee. (Remember that due to calendar changes, the date for the start of Christ's ministry is set by most historians at about 26 A.D. Also note that from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. is just one year.) Jesus' crucifixion occurred only a few years later, and about four decades later, in 70 A.D. came the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus."

Okay, some crazy bible reading dude is going to claim he's the "son of god." Because of this "prophecy" 483 years later(with the help of the priests who calculated a lot of this history), a Jewish Shepard claimed to be the son of God, and to have been born without his mom having sex. With any civilization, when you display different view points, you tend to be chastised. Because this 'man' was running around giving sermons telling the Jews their religion is wrong, guess who had the Romans kill him? Exactly. They didn't mention a crucifixion, just a public gathering where he'd be killed - which was common back then. Even US prisoners die in front of a little audience nowadays.

Ok I give me evidence for that. In a reasonable debate you cannot just claim something happened without some evidence.

The prophecies are extremely specific, and not simply like that at all.

read these, there are extremely descriptive and 100% accurate

Fulfilled Prophecy: Evidence for the Reliability of the Bible | Reasons To Believe

Prophecies of Jesus Christ as Messiah

[johnkreese]

Originally Posted by jjspecialist

Ok I give me evidence for that. In a reasonable debate you cannot just claim something happened without some evidence.

The prophecies are extremely specific, and not simply like that at all.

read these, there are extremely descriptive and 100% accurate

Fulfilled Prophecy: Evidence for the Reliability of the Bible | Reasons To Believe

Prophecies of Jesus Christ as Messiah

you mean like this one?

"(7) The exact location and construction sequence of Jerusalem's nine suburbs was predicted by Jeremiah about 2600 years ago. He referred to the time of this building project as "the last days," that is, the time period of Israel's second rebirth as a nation in the land of Palestine (Jeremiah 31:38-40). This rebirth became history in 1948, and the construction of the nine suburbs has gone forward precisely in the locations and in the sequence predicted."


You do realize this was a product of a war between palestinians and jews, right? Both of whom are fighting over "holy land" they claim is there's. The war was bound to happen, and sparked by some sort of birth right of faith. The Jews won, and separated the land in the way they claim they deserved it, or as their bible claims they deserve it.


The rest of these "prophecies" are vague. It doesn't take a genius to know some guy is going to make bogus claims and then get killed.

Was David Koresh a prophet? I doubt it! If so, he was killed! That seems to be a common theme in humanity - kill the guy who claims to be a prophet!

[jjspecialist]

Originally Posted by johnkreese

you mean like this one?

"(7) The exact location and construction sequence of Jerusalem's nine suburbs was predicted by Jeremiah about 2600 years ago. He referred to the time of this building project as "the last days," that is, the time period of Israel's second rebirth as a nation in the land of Palestine (Jeremiah 31:38-40). This rebirth became history in 1948, and the construction of the nine suburbs has gone forward precisely in the locations and in the sequence predicted."


You do realize this was a product of a war between palestinians and jews, right? Both of whom are fighting over "holy land" they claim is there's. The war was bound to happen, and sparked by some sort of birth right of faith. The Jews won, and separated the land in the way they claim they deserved it, or as their bible claims they deserve it.


The rest of these "prophecies" are vague. It doesn't take a genius to know some guy is going to make bogus claims and then get killed.

Was David Koresh a prophet? I doubt it! If so, he was killed! That seems to be a common theme in humanity - kill the guy who claims to be a prophet!

Ok so you picked 1 prophecy out of 2000 and claimed it is by chance. I could believe the chance thing if there was a couple prophecies, but not 2000

[johnkreese]

Originally Posted by jjspecialist

Ok so you picked 1 prophecy out of 2000 and claimed it is by chance. I could believe the chance thing if there was a couple prophecies, but not 2000

Well, I didn't know I had to disprove them all... I thought they were all "so specific" that I wouldn't be able to disprove any of them?

The whole point of the war was for the Jews to take back the land the bible told them was theirs. They divided it up according to their religious faith. It's a fact! Not a prophecy! This is why the Palestinians and the Jews are still at odds till this day. If religion didn't exist, the conflict would've never started.


"(1) Some time before 500 B.C. the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26). He further predicted that the Messiah would be "cut off," killed, and that this event would take place prior to a second destruction of Jerusalem. Abundant documentation shows that these prophecies were perfectly fulfilled in the life (and crucifixion) of Jesus Christ. The decree regarding the restoration of Jerusalem was issued by Persia's King Artaxerxes to the Hebrew priest Ezra in 458 B.C., 483 years later the ministry of Jesus Christ began in Galilee. (Remember that due to calendar changes, the date for the start of Christ's ministry is set by most historians at about 26 A.D. Also note that from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. is just one year.) Jesus' crucifixion occurred only a few years later, and about four decades later, in 70 A.D. came the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus."

First off, the calendar we follow, and much of early human historic calendar the west chooses to follow, was created by a priest who used the Bible as a marker for figuring out when certain events "occurred." I put occurred in quotes, because it's all an estimation. This is why for about 5-600 years, humans thought the world was only 12,000 years old(or something like that). They also believed the world was flat, and before that, believed there was a giant man holding the earth up.

Second of all, the claim is so vague. What is "some time before 500 bc?" That could be of any time before then! Even so... 483 years after 500 BC would still be 17 years before the dated birth of Christ. Which would mean, by these terms, the ministry of Jesus(that Jesus himself supposedly started) started 17 years before he was actually born.


" In approximately 700 B.C. the prophet Micah named the tiny village of Bethlehem as the birthplace of Israel's Messiah (Micah 5:2). The fulfillment of this prophecy in the birth of Christ is one of the most widely known and widely celebrated facts in history."

Yup, exactly. So now, everyone's on the lookout for a "miracle" child. This happened when some young girl claimed to immaculately conceive a child. Biologically, I can prove why these things don't happen; but I think we both know about the birds and bees. I think it's more feasible, at least for me, to believe Mary was telling a white lie. If you want to believe otherwise, go ahead... but at least see the logic here. Ie: Penis + vagina + sperm = pregnancy.


"(4) Some 400 years before crucifixion was invented, both Israel's King David and the prophet Zechariah described the Messiah's death in words that perfectly depict that mode of execution. Further, they said that the body would be pierced and that none of the bones would be broken, contrary to customary procedure in cases of crucifixion (Psalm 22 and 34:20; Zechariah 12:10). Again, historians and New Testament writers confirm the fulfillment: Jesus of Nazareth died on a Roman cross, and his extraordinarily quick death eliminated the need for the usual breaking of bones. A spear was thrust into his side to verify that he was, indeed, dead."


Okay, so people don't die by being stabbed in the heart, or other vital organ without "breaking a bone?" There's no mention of being nailed a cross. Again... look at what usually happens to people who claim to be a prophet of God, and tell others their religion is wrong! IE: David Koresh.


"8) The prophet Moses foretold (with some additions by Jeremiah and Jesus) that the ancient Jewish nation would be conquered twice and that the people would be carried off as slaves each time, first by the Babylonians (for a period of 70 years), and then by a fourth world kingdom (which we know as Rome). The second conqueror, Moses said, would take the Jews captive to Egypt in ships, selling them or giving them away as slaves to all parts of the world. Both of these predictions were fulfilled to the letter, the first in 607 B.C. and the second in 70 A.D. God's spokesmen said, further, that the Jews would remain scattered throughout the entire world for many generations, but without becoming assimilated by the peoples or of other nations, and that the Jews would one day return to the land of Palestine to re-establish for a second time their nation (Deuteronomy 29; Isaiah 11:11-13; Jeremiah 25:11; Hosea 3:4-5 and Luke 21:23-24).

This prophetic statement sweeps across 3500 years of history to its complete fulfillment—in our lifetime."

Again, if this right to entitlement in the bible didn't exist, The Jews wouldn't have come back to conquer the land again. It's a fact.

Put it this way... if the Grand Canyon was proven to be some sort of holy ground that Noah sailed his arc on.... a bunch of crazy religious radicals would be trying to take that land too.


Do I really need to disprove anymore of these?

[jjspecialist]

Originally Posted by johnkreese

Well, I didn't know I had to disprove them all... I thought they were all "so specific" that I wouldn't be able to disprove any of them?

The whole point of the war was for the Jews to take back the land the bible told them was theirs. They divided it up according to their religious faith. It's a fact! Not a prophecy! This is why the Palestinians and the Jews are still at odds till this day. If religion didn't exist, the conflict would've never started.


"(1) Some time before 500 B.C. the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26). He further predicted that the Messiah would be "cut off," killed, and that this event would take place prior to a second destruction of Jerusalem. Abundant documentation shows that these prophecies were perfectly fulfilled in the life (and crucifixion) of Jesus Christ. The decree regarding the restoration of Jerusalem was issued by Persia's King Artaxerxes to the Hebrew priest Ezra in 458 B.C., 483 years later the ministry of Jesus Christ began in Galilee. (Remember that due to calendar changes, the date for the start of Christ's ministry is set by most historians at about 26 A.D. Also note that from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. is just one year.) Jesus' crucifixion occurred only a few years later, and about four decades later, in 70 A.D. came the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus."

First off, the calendar we follow, and much of early human historic calendar the west chooses to follow, was created by a priest who used the Bible as a marker for figuring out when certain events "occurred." I put occurred in quotes, because it's all an estimation. This is why for about 5-600 years, humans thought the world was only 12,000 years old(or something like that). They also believed the world was flat, and before that, believed there was a giant man holding the earth up.

Second of all, the claim is so vague. What is "some time before 500 bc?" That could be of any time before then! Even so... 483 years after 500 BC would still be 17 years before the dated birth of Christ. Which would mean, by these terms, the ministry of Jesus(that Jesus himself supposedly started) started 17 years before he was actually born.


" In approximately 700 B.C. the prophet Micah named the tiny village of Bethlehem as the birthplace of Israel's Messiah (Micah 5:2). The fulfillment of this prophecy in the birth of Christ is one of the most widely known and widely celebrated facts in history."

Yup, exactly. So now, everyone's on the lookout for a "miracle" child. This happened when some young girl claimed to immaculately conceive a child. Biologically, I can prove why these things don't happen; but I think we both know about the birds and bees. I think it's more feasible, at least for me, to believe Mary was telling a white lie. If you want to believe otherwise, go ahead... but at least see the logic here. Ie: Penis + vagina + sperm = pregnancy.


"(4) Some 400 years before crucifixion was invented, both Israel's King David and the prophet Zechariah described the Messiah's death in words that perfectly depict that mode of execution. Further, they said that the body would be pierced and that none of the bones would be broken, contrary to customary procedure in cases of crucifixion (Psalm 22 and 34:20; Zechariah 12:10). Again, historians and New Testament writers confirm the fulfillment: Jesus of Nazareth died on a Roman cross, and his extraordinarily quick death eliminated the need for the usual breaking of bones. A spear was thrust into his side to verify that he was, indeed, dead."


Okay, so people don't die by being stabbed in the heart, or other vital organ without "breaking a bone?" There's no mention of being nailed a cross. Again... look at what usually happens to people who claim to be a prophet of God, and tell others their religion is wrong! IE: David Koresh.


"8) The prophet Moses foretold (with some additions by Jeremiah and Jesus) that the ancient Jewish nation would be conquered twice and that the people would be carried off as slaves each time, first by the Babylonians (for a period of 70 years), and then by a fourth world kingdom (which we know as Rome). The second conqueror, Moses said, would take the Jews captive to Egypt in ships, selling them or giving them away as slaves to all parts of the world. Both of these predictions were fulfilled to the letter, the first in 607 B.C. and the second in 70 A.D. God's spokesmen said, further, that the Jews would remain scattered throughout the entire world for many generations, but without becoming assimilated by the peoples or of other nations, and that the Jews would one day return to the land of Palestine to re-establish for a second time their nation (Deuteronomy 29; Isaiah 11:11-13; Jeremiah 25:11; Hosea 3:4-5 and Luke 21:23-24).

This prophetic statement sweeps across 3500 years of history to its complete fulfillment—in our lifetime."

Again, if this right to entitlement in the bible didn't exist, The Jews wouldn't have come back to conquer the land again. It's a fact.

Put it this way... if the Grand Canyon was proven to be some sort of holy ground that Noah sailed his arc on.... a bunch of crazy religious radicals would be trying to take that land too.


Do I really need to disprove anymore of these?

"Do I really need to disprove anymore of these?"

You didn't disprove any of them

ya and I suppose they won that land by chance, built those suburbs in the exact location by chance, and did it exactly when it was supposed to happen by chance? It is a prophecy when it is predicted before it happens not a fact.

It doesn't matter exactly when it was predicted, as long as it was well before it happened.

"Which would mean, by these terms, the ministry of Jesus(that Jesus himself supposedly started) started 17 years before he was actually born."

EXACTLY! which shows that he was the son of God and not just some false prophet.

"Biologically, I can prove why these things don't happen"

EXACTLY! that is why it is so amazing because Jesus can be born by a virgin. God is so amazing because he can do that kind of stuff. God is not bound by biological facts.

"Okay, so people don't die by being stabbed in the heart, or other vital organ without "breaking a bone?" There's no mention of being nailed a cross. Again... look at what usually happens to people who claim to be a prophet of God, and tell others their religion is wrong! IE: David Koresh."

He was stabbed in the side, therefore eliminating the breaking of bones, and that again shows that God is God and can make anything possible.

"Put it this way... if the Grand Canyon was proven to be some sort of holy ground that Noah sailed his arc on.... a bunch of crazy religious radicals would be trying to take that land too."

So again you try to disprove the prophecy by saying it is just a coincidence.

I am sorry but you cannot disprove these prophecies by stating that they are coincidences.

[johnkreese]

Originally Posted by jjspecialist

"Do I really need to disprove anymore of these?"

You didn't disprove any of them

ya and I suppose they won that land by chance, built those suburbs in the exact location by chance, and did it exactly when it was supposed to happen by chance? It is a prophecy when it is predicted before it happens not a fact.

It doesn't matter exactly when it was predicted, as long as it was well before it happened.

"Which would mean, by these terms, the ministry of Jesus(that Jesus himself supposedly started) started 17 years before he was actually born."

EXACTLY! which shows that he was the son of God and not just some false prophet.

"Biologically, I can prove why these things don't happen"

EXACTLY! that is why it is so amazing because Jesus can be born by a virgin. God is so amazing because he can do that kind of stuff. God is not bound by biological facts.

"Okay, so people don't die by being stabbed in the heart, or other vital organ without "breaking a bone?" There's no mention of being nailed a cross. Again... look at what usually happens to people who claim to be a prophet of God, and tell others their religion is wrong! IE: David Koresh."

He was stabbed in the side, therefore eliminating the breaking of bones, and that again shows that God is God and can make anything possible.

"Put it this way... if the Grand Canyon was proven to be some sort of holy ground that Noah sailed his arc on.... a bunch of crazy religious radicals would be trying to take that land too."

So again you try to disprove the prophecy by saying it is just a coincidence.

I am sorry but you cannot disprove these prophecies by stating that they are coincidences.

I'm not saying they're coincidences at all. I'm do believe they're planned out. However, the bible was used as the model for the planning, which was done by humans who were followers of the bible.


Btw, it's possible, without the supposed hand of God to stab someone in the side and not break any bones.

[unclegrick]

Originally Posted by peteyandjia

He may have tapped verbally, not sure.

Either way he fucking lost.

Did he really lose? We're still talking about this guy, 2000 years later.

[johnkreese]

Originally Posted by unclegrick

Did he really lose? We're still talking about this guy, 2000 years later.

We're still waiting for the resurrection, and then the subsequent rematch vs the cross.