Hypothetically, lets say the Christian god is real? Do we really have free-will?

Blackened · 07:08 AM

OK lets say there is a man, who tied me up, and said "if you say apple you can leave, no problems whatsoever, we just pretend this never happened. Or if you with to say orange, I slowly torture you, before kill you". Of course I would could say orange, but is that free-will? It sounds like someone is forcing me to do something not free will to me.

OK lets say there is this Jesus guy, he says "you accept me as your savior, and live in heaven for all eternity, or you do not accept me, and go to hell". Is that really a choice? I don't think it is, it sounds like someone is forcing me to do something, I really see Satan as a good guy in comparison to God/Jesus/Trinity... whatever it is.

discuss...

armtriangle · 08-03-2007, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackened

OK lets say there is a man, who tied me up, and said "if you say apple you can leave, no problems whatsoever, we just pretend this never happened. Or if you with to say orange, I slowly torture you, before kill you". Of course I would could say orange, but is that free-will? It sounds like someone is forcing me to do something not free will to me.

OK lets say there is this Jesus guy, he says "you accept me as your savior, and live in heaven for all eternity, or you do not accept me, and go to hell". Is that really a choice? I don't think it is, it sounds like someone is forcing me to do something, I really see Satan as a good guy in comparison to God/Jesus/Trinity... whatever it is.

discuss...

Jesus never actually said anything like that. I can make false premises and support them too. But given your premises, your conclusion is still incorrect.
lets say there was this cop and this judge, and they said if you kill someone you will go to jail until you die. The presence of cause and effect or consequences does not eliminate free will. People make the decisions to kill and go to jail all the time. From a christian perspective, choosing to not follow Jesus is the same- its really that you would rather live a life not bound by service to others and God... not that you dont have free will.

A much better agrument against free will, is that if God is omnicient and omnipotent (he knows what you are going to do and has all power in the universe) how can i have free will. If it is already decided what will happen tomorrow, and God knows what i am going to do, how can it b said that my path is undecided. A similar argument is that if God knows all and is all powerful and created all... that means he knows before you were born you were going to be an athiest and "go to hell" as you put it. That means he created you with the purpose if destroying you. This cannot be, since God is also all good. This is a better argument against free will. and it creates a paradox for christians.

as for seeing satan as a good guy. Completely idiotic and deserves no comment. But for some reason I like to try to enlighten 15 year olds (though it never does any good at all).

Most atheists are just like you though, lots of talk about deciding things with an open mind, judging for yourself, etc. Then you go and make a statement like this. I will bet you a million dollars you cannot find even one instance of anything even remotely similar to what you just said in any of the gospels. About the only instance of anything close, is Jesus said "no one comes to the Father except through me."

armtriangle · 08-03-2007, 11:20 AM

also Im quite certain that sherdog is teh worst place in all of teh world to debate God or free-will. Yet here i am

Jay Pan ROKK · 08-03-2007, 11:29 AM

I have no idea.

xceptionalguysd · 08-03-2007, 11:56 AM

God only allows us to be tempted up to what we can bear. And even then he gives us a way out.

This is not complete free will. Only Adam and Eve had complete free will in my view.

However, God continually reaches out to all His children believer and non-believer alike. If you choose to deny Him that is your choice. Just as if you choose to walk in front of a bus, the difference is the bus driver cannot control the breaks fast enough to stop you from dying immediately, and God does through grace.

CanadaWrestle · 08-03-2007, 12:02 PM

Weird- I just had this conversation with my family yesterday. It all spawned from me arguing that God, although all knowing, probably does NOT control every aspect on earth. We were watching "Big Brother 8" when a woman drew a random ball out of a sack (for a competition), and the woman took it to be "gods will" her name was drawn out of the sack, and proclaimed "god made you draw my name out of the sack for a reason, so I will fight for you". I don't think god would care enough really to come down, take the entity of the ball, and make her choose it- it just doesnt make sense to me. Do I think god controls some part of your life? Yes- like...your first meeting with your "true love" your first child, and other BIG events in your life (near death experiences). But do I think that god took the time to figure out and plan what your going to do next? No- I chose to eat Total this morning, not god. God probably wouldn't give a shit if I ate a pound of chocolate for breakfast, or if I didn't go to work- he's just there for the good stuff of my life, not the boring and mundane.

That's just my opinion on the whole "fate" thing

And as for the original poster...I can see your view point, and it does make sense to me. Literally, I don't think that you NEED to get baptized or you NEED to goto church or anything like that. I don't even think you NEED to accept Jesus to get into heaven, just the only need to have to do is, you NEED to be a good person in life- because honestly, do you really think a just god would let every person who isn't a Christian go to hell? I mean...theres BILLIONS of people around the world who aren't Christian, do you really think that no Hindu's, no Buddhists, no Muslims would be allowed into heaven? I mean most of the people don't even have a choice in there religion- like people born in saudi arabia, do you really think that your friends and family are just going to accept you leaving Islam for Chrisianity? Hell no- you'll wind up dead in a week!

The way I see it- Jesus is forgiveness, and I think he'll let it slide that you didn't accept him as your savior. I think alot of the stuff that people say you NEED to do are just kind of scare tactics put forth by the church to MAKE you go and stay there, out of fright. If you were heavily involved with a church, and the priest said to you, you NEED to get baptized or your going to hell, and its going to cost $$$ this much, would you refuse the service? Hell no you wouldn't!

What you have to remember is there is a difference between the RELIGION and the CHURCH, which alot of people don't see.

CanadaWrestle · 08-03-2007, 12:04 PM

"I really see Satan as a good guy in comparison to God/Jesus/Trinity... whatever it is."

comments like this will only lead to a dumb internet war between you and Christians.

armtriangle · 08-03-2007, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xceptionalguysd

God only allows us to be tempted up to what we can bear. And even then he gives us a way out.

This is not complete free will. Only Adam and Eve had complete free will in my view.

However, God continually reaches out to all His children believer and non-believer alike. If you choose to deny Him that is your choice. Just as if you choose to walk in front of a bus, the difference is the bus driver cannot control the breaks fast enough to stop you from dying immediately, and God does through grace.

I do think the heaven/hell issue gets taken overboard by many Christians and nonchristians. IT IS A LEGIT QUESTION, THOUGH ITS NOT REALLY ABOUT FREE WILL. Its really a question about whether you can be forced to belioeve something. if you are "believing" something to avoid punishment, are you really believing? thats really th TS question.

its the same as the problem with pascal's wager. He said believing has no detriments, only benefits. not believing has a major potential detriment (hell). so its better to believe. Pascal's critics said you cant force yourself to believe something. either you believe or you dont. Pascal had an answer though. but as i tyoe i realize no one cares what i have to say, so im quitting.

killbot_9 · 08-03-2007, 12:14 PM

There is no free will. It's impossible.

Off topic: If the Abrahamic god where real his first contradiction to his omnibenevolence would be creating Adam and Eve. With full omnipotent knowledge that Eve would damn all of humanity to the eternal hell or heaven proposition by being tempted by the serpent. This seems like a weird situation for a entity that knows the future; why created something you know will cause death and torment for an infinite generation of humans because of the introduction of sin.

Jesus would be the ultimate salesman for salvation though, how could you say no to that puppy dog face?

armtriangle · 08-03-2007, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CanadaWrestle

The way I see it- Jesus is forgiveness, and I think he'll let it slide that you didn't accept him as .

alot of christians disagree.

good post though. This is actually the one big problem i have with religion... I can accept everything else. The only thing is that simply "not believing it to be true" is the worst thing a person can do. it seems so out if character for everything else Jesus related. to be fair, your sins are only forgiven in Christianity if you repent (which means you a sorry, and try to change). this is the most troublesome aspect of Christianity for me. I guess you coudl interpret the issue away... by saying that when the Bible talks about accepting Christ and proclaiming him as savior, its really talking about accepting his way of life (service to others and God). Which is really about putting your needs and ego below others. In that sense there many Christ-ian non christians.