[super_orr]

Before I begin, I just want to say that I am a professional wrestler, who also trains for MMA, and would like to do both. I am also a university graduate, and a fairly nice guy. I don't want to come off as an asshole on this one...

But...

I think its funny that all of the fanboys on here have such animosity towards pro-wrestling, but MMA fighters have no problem with it at all. Why do you think that is? In fact, most MMA fighters show a lot of respect to pro-wrestlers and in Japan they are looked upon as equals by both fans and fighters. Then why the hatred?

Well, I'll tell you. Plain and simple, the WWE as a corporation. The silly antics on their programming over shadows how great of athletes many (not all) of those guys are. The storylines, the bad acting, the monologues, etc. are all terrible innovations to the world of Pro-wrestling that have helped business, but hurt credibility. So much so in fact that most people can't stand to watch even 2 minutes of it because of all the really lame angles the wrestlers are basically forced into doing by writers who have no idea about the history of pro-wrestling or any idea about the mechanics of a wrestling match. In North America, Pro-wrestling on the largest stages (WWE, TNA) has become exactly the circus that most MMA fans envision and cringe at the thought of. However, in the smaller indy feds of North America (Ring of Honor, IWS, etc.) the wrestlers are not giant roided up guys who are oiled up and fake punch each other for 15 minutes. No, they are legit athletes with a wrestling style that is very snug and fast paced. Many of them train MMA (and those that don't at least respect it)to keep in shape, and also to get new ideas to make innovations to the north american pro-wrestling scene because frankly they are embarrassed to have WWE as a direct representation to the masses, which is effecting how actual sports fans view it.

In Japan, pro-wrestling is much different. It is a legacy of tradition that has deep roots in sumo wrestling, judo, and jiujitsu. The style of the matches is completely different than North Americas, with thick, solidly built (definitely non-roided) wrestlers working a stiff, realistic style that could be mistaken for real by a non-mma fan. In fact, some federations focus on having their particular feds style so realistic that it could honestly be mistaken for a pancrase match. Also, in Japan the wrestlers actually train in dojos in catch wrestling and judo to help the realism in their matches and to help protect themselves in case somebody tries to shoot on them during a work. Some of the wrestlers have actually become so good that they consider competing in legitimate MMA/judo/jiujitsu competitions and has led to a lot of memorable fighters (such as Sakuraba) getting into MMA. Likewise, a lot of MMA fighters who have wanted to supplement their incomes have taken part in pro-wrestling exhibitions (such as Frye, Coleman, Randleman, etc.).

The main problem I have is not with people not liking pro-wrestling. I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how much I might disagree. My problem lays with people bashing it without having an educated opinion or a grasp of what it really is. Pro-wrestling is NOT WWE. WWE is a weak bastardization of what pro-wrestling used to be in North America (and still is in most feds in Japan). The opinion that all professional wrestlers are roided up underwear models, although I could see how someone who never gave it much thought might think that, is utterly wrong. The fact of the matter is that many pro-wrestlers have legitimate athletic credentials under their belts long before their wrestling careers even started. The sad part of it is that many MMA fans (mostly the TUF fanboy crowd) think that because pro-wrestling is scripted that that means that the wrestlers are NOT ATHLETIC. I don't even know how to explain how silly this is. Brock Lesnar is the poster boy for this right now due to his recent stab at an MMA career. Everybody knows Brock from the WWE, but he was also one of the best amateur wrestlers of all-time, and that is no joke. If he had come straight out of the NCAA (where he was heavyweight champion in 2000) and went in to MMA, he would've had a huge following with MMA fans, due to what a freak of nature he is athletically. Here is a 6'3 285 pound NCAA champion, who bench presses 600 lbs, can do a standing backflip, and in his first and only MMA fight he beat a much more experienced (former olympic judo silver medallist) MMA fighter and dominated him in a very convincing technical manner. Yet, many of the people on the sherdog forums refer to him as a "fake" wrestler. Now, while pro-wrestling may be scripted, it is not fake. It is very rough on your body and has a lot of pain involved with its performance, but that aside, I don't understand how anyone can think that because he used to work for the WWE that he isn't a good athlete anymore. This type of sentiment usually comes from fanboys who don't want to believe that a pro-wrestler could beat their favorite MMA fighter, but the fact remains at this very moment that a lot of the top HWs in the world aren't rushing to fight Brock.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that pro-wrestlers are going to take over MMA. What I AM saying though is that in today's MMA scene, the most important thing is to be athletic/tough if you want to have a successful MMA career because there are so many MMA schools with former combat sports champions just itching to train the new breed of fighters. Pro-wrestlers (generally, not definitely) fit that description and many of them already have rudimentary understandings of grappling/boxing, plus they are willing to do almost anything without a second though, and have experience in front of large crowds. This is a decent building block to start with when someone like Miletich, Bas, or Shammy is raining info on you and working you hard. That is why many pro-wrestlers do well in MMA, or at least have entertaining fights.

The bottomline is that pro-wrestling isn't trying to be MMA, and hopefully MMA doesn't go the way of pro-wrestling (like worked matches, although I know there has been at least a handful already). I like both of them, for totally different reasons. A true MMA fan isn't worried that "pro-wrestlers are going to invade MMA" because a person who understands MMA understands that if you don't/can't win fights, you won't be around long. On the same reasoning, a true MMA fan should be able to see how athletic many pro-wrestlers (AJ Styles, Kenta, Bryan Danielson, Kurt Angle, etc.) are, and treat them with respect. I have yet to see an MMA competitor treat any pro-wrestler with disrespect in person, and I have been backstage at TKO and KOTCCAN events regularily, not because of any type of fear but because MMA is a sport. Its two athletes conversing. Its not "MMA is real. You're fake." crap, ending with a scrap. Also, I have trained with Gary Goodridge and been to training seminars with GSP, and both have been really respectful to it, along with many of TKO fighters I know. This is why it baffles me as to why Sherdog posters have the gall to talk shit about really good athletes, especially when I doubt many of them have ever set foot in a gym before. Athletes are athletes and with proper, world class training, anyone has a shot in an MMA fight.

So, in closing, I hope that if anyone takes the time to read this whole essay, (I know its long, but it is also well written in comparison to 80% of the posts on here), that they will think the next time they say "fuck pro-wrestling" and realize what they mean to say is "fuck WWE". Barnett is a good fighter, one of the best HWs in the world, and if he wants to take part in Puroresu exhibitions for some extra-cash, everyone should respect that. It takes nothing away from his manliness, or his ability to beat people's asses for real. Same goes for Brock.

P.S. I'm betting on Brock against Mir.......Flame away guys!

[KJGould]

Most people don't appreciate catch wrestling was a legitimate combative wrestling artform, back in the day. When catch wrestling became show wrestling, and eventually professional wrestling, a lot of the art was lost along the way, except in Japan where Karl Gotch is immortalised over there and his teachings contributed a lot to what became Shooto style.

[jmac98]

The problem is, in North America - WWE and TNA (or NWA or whatever it's called) are the top dogs. Every single small org (including your Stampede Wrestling, which I'm guessing you are a part of since you're from Calgary) have the goal to reach the big time, which is the WWE or TNA.
WWE is not mis-interpreting what pro wrestling is. They are the pinnacle of what every aspiring pro wrestler aims to reach for. Every young athlete who wishes to become a pro wrestler, does so because they watched WWE and/or TNA on tv. They go through the small circuits getting paid tiny incriments, in hopes to one day become the star on WWE television that you are saying is not a representation of what pro wrestling is.
The shows in Japan are more in tune to that of 'catch wrestling' or 'shootwresting'. The shows they put on, and have in the past before the surge of mma, were under these names. They are now also considered 'pro wrestling', and you are correct -- this style of wrestling is less about the skits and antics, and more about the athletic abilities and the show. In recent years though, the pro wrestling in Japan has taken on the same qualities as the WWE. They have adapted the skits and silly storylines as well. Don Frye used to wear a ridiculous leather coat and do silly skits the same way McMahon does today. This is in part what got Frye over so well in Japan.
Pro wrestling is what it is. It's choreographed entertainment, performed remarkebly well by athletes and professionals. These people earn their dimes. The skits and scenes and all that nonsense, is what pro wrestling is today. You cannot bypass this fact, nor can you discredit the WWE, as again, they are the pinnacle of what pro wrestling is. They are the top ofthe mountain, and these days, to be at the top of the mountain, you have to not only be a good wrestler, you also have to be a terrible actor willing to do 15 minutes 'Saturday Night Live' skits in front of 30,000 people.
Is it silly? Is it fun? Is it dumb? That's all for the individual to decide. Wrestling is very cut and dry. Either you like it or you don't. If you don't like it....fine, but do not compare wrestling to mma, because they are 2 very different worlds, with 2 very different expectations and presentations.
It's inacurrate and unimformative to compare the 2, because they are not of the same mould. They are 2 completely different entities, and both are currently doing just fine in their respective worlds. Some like both, some like one or the other.... and everyone has their own opinions which they feel is the end-all of being correct. This then, is why they make chocolate and vanilla: because you like shitty ice cream.

[Hinch]

Originally Posted by KJGould

Most people don't appreciate catch wrestling was a legitimate combative wrestling artform, back in the day. When catch wrestling became show wrestling, and eventually professional wrestling, a lot of the art was lost along the way, except in Japan where Karl Gotch is immortalised over there and his teachings contributed a lot to what became Shooto style.

And ironically Karl garnered the label "God of pro wrestling." Something that'd horrify the Sherdog noobs.

[super_orr]

Originally Posted by jmac98

The problem is, in North America - WWE and TNA (or NWA or whatever it's called) are the top dogs. Every single small org (including your Stampede Wrestling, which I'm guessing you are a part of since you're from Calgary) have the goal to reach the big time, which is the WWE or TNA.
WWE is not mis-interpreting what pro wrestling is. They are the pinnacle of what every aspiring pro wrestler aims to reach for. Every young athlete who wishes to become a pro wrestler, does so because they watched WWE and/or TNA on tv. They go through the small circuits getting paid tiny incriments, in hopes to one day become the star on WWE television that you are saying is not a representation of what pro wrestling is.
The shows in Japan are more in tune to that of 'catch wrestling' or 'shootwresting'. The shows they put on, and have in the past before the surge of mma, were under these names. They are now also considered 'pro wrestling', and you are correct -- this style of wrestling is less about the skits and antics, and more about the athletic abilities and the show. In recent years though, the pro wrestling in Japan has taken on the same qualities as the WWE. They have adapted the skits and silly storylines as well. Don Frye used to wear a ridiculous leather coat and do silly skits the same way McMahon does today. This is in part what got Frye over so well in Japan.
Pro wrestling is what it is. It's choreographed entertainment, performed remarkebly well by athletes and professionals. These people earn their dimes. The skits and scenes and all that nonsense, is what pro wrestling is today. You cannot bypass this fact, nor can you discredit the WWE, as again, they are the pinnacle of what pro wrestling is. They are the top ofthe mountain, and these days, to be at the top of the mountain, you have to not only be a good wrestler, you also have to be a terrible actor willing to do 15 minutes 'Saturday Night Live' skits in front of 30,000 people.
Is it silly? Is it fun? Is it dumb? That's all for the individual to decide. Wrestling is very cut and dry. Either you like it or you don't. If you don't like it....fine, but do not compare wrestling to mma, because they are 2 very different worlds, with 2 very different expectations and presentations.
It's inacurrate and unimformative to compare the 2, because they are not of the same mould. They are 2 completely different entities, and both are currently doing just fine in their respective worlds. Some like both, some like one or the other.... and everyone has their own opinions which they feel is the end-all of being correct. This then, is why they make chocolate and vanilla: because you like shitty ice cream.

I agree with you almost 100%, except for the part about WWE being the pinnacle. Financially, yes, they most definitely are, but its called pro-wrestling. "Wrestling" is the word on the Marquee, before "entertainment, and a WWE show consists of 75% promos and skits and 25% wrestling. If you go to an IWS show (a small fed ran out of Montreal, which I have wrestled for) you will see more wrestling in the first half of the show than you will in a month of WWE. However, the point of my post was more about the bashing aspect of pro-wrestling/pro-wrestlers here on our beloved MMA forum.

Also, I am very impressed with the intelligence in the responses thus far, the one I quoted included.

[super_orr]

Originally Posted by jmac98

The problem is, in North America - WWE and TNA (or NWA or whatever it's called) are the top dogs. Every single small org (including your Stampede Wrestling, which I'm guessing you are a part of since you're from Calgary) have the goal to reach the big time, which is the WWE or TNA.
WWE is not mis-interpreting what pro wrestling is. They are the pinnacle of what every aspiring pro wrestler aims to reach for. Every young athlete who wishes to become a pro wrestler, does so because they watched WWE and/or TNA on tv. They go through the small circuits getting paid tiny incriments, in hopes to one day become the star on WWE television that you are saying is not a representation of what pro wrestling is.
The shows in Japan are more in tune to that of 'catch wrestling' or 'shootwresting'. The shows they put on, and have in the past before the surge of mma, were under these names. They are now also considered 'pro wrestling', and you are correct -- this style of wrestling is less about the skits and antics, and more about the athletic abilities and the show. In recent years though, the pro wrestling in Japan has taken on the same qualities as the WWE. They have adapted the skits and silly storylines as well. Don Frye used to wear a ridiculous leather coat and do silly skits the same way McMahon does today. This is in part what got Frye over so well in Japan.
Pro wrestling is what it is. It's choreographed entertainment, performed remarkebly well by athletes and professionals. These people earn their dimes. The skits and scenes and all that nonsense, is what pro wrestling is today. You cannot bypass this fact, nor can you discredit the WWE, as again, they are the pinnacle of what pro wrestling is. They are the top ofthe mountain, and these days, to be at the top of the mountain, you have to not only be a good wrestler, you also have to be a terrible actor willing to do 15 minutes 'Saturday Night Live' skits in front of 30,000 people.
Is it silly? Is it fun? Is it dumb? That's all for the individual to decide. Wrestling is very cut and dry. Either you like it or you don't. If you don't like it....fine, but do not compare wrestling to mma, because they are 2 very different worlds, with 2 very different expectations and presentations.
It's inacurrate and unimformative to compare the 2, because they are not of the same mould. They are 2 completely different entities, and both are currently doing just fine in their respective worlds. Some like both, some like one or the other.... and everyone has their own opinions which they feel is the end-all of being correct. This then, is why they make chocolate and vanilla: because you like shitty ice cream.

I agree with you almost 100%, except for the part about WWE being the pinnacle. Financially, yes, they most definitely are, but its called pro-wrestling. "Wrestling" is the word on the Marquee, before "entertainment, and a WWE show consists of 75% promos and skits and 25% wrestling. If you go to an IWS show (a small fed ran out of Montreal, which I have wrestled for) you will see more wrestling in the first half of the show than you will in a month of WWE. However, the point of my post was more about the bashing aspect of pro-wrestling/pro-wrestlers here on our beloved MMA forum.

Also, I am very impressed with the intelligence in the responses thus far, the one I quoted included.

[Bertmark]

Originally Posted by jmac98

The problem is, in North America - WWE and TNA (or NWA or whatever it's called) are the top dogs. Every single small org (including your Stampede Wrestling, which I'm guessing you are a part of since you're from Calgary) have the goal to reach the big time, which is the WWE or TNA.
WWE is not mis-interpreting what pro wrestling is. They are the pinnacle of what every aspiring pro wrestler aims to reach for.

This is quite frankly, complete bullshit. Tell that to Bryan Danielson. Arguably the best wrestler in the world, and he could get a job at WWE in an instant because all the top guys there love him. But he thinks WWE sucks, so he won't work there, because a) he hates the terrible childish style, b) he earns more money on the independant circuit, and c) it means somebody is always telling you how to work and you get no freedom as an employee. Most wrestlers who are half decent in the US are now either not under contrat to those big promotions or they're looking for a way out of their contracts because they're so miserable and they want to be able to wrestle more seriously. And it's a growing trend.

WWE is a severe perversion of what pro wrestling was and what it should be. So is Muto's AJPW. So is all the WWEish goings on in NJPW now. WWE might be where the most money is made, but that doesn't mean it's the pinnacle of anything except marketing, it still sucks. Just like McDonald's is the most profitable resturant in the world, but that doesn't mean they're the pinnicale of dining and all other resturaunts should try be McDonalds, or that evey chef aspires to work at McDonalds.

[nathan o]

i don't see why people can't just not talk shit.... it's pretty simple. i'm not a huge fan of pro wrestling but i won't put it down. i'm also very close to someone who is in the wwe and he is a great athlete. i love mma and i can tell you it doesn't mean you have to hate pro wrestling. if you hate it, keep it to yourself. it's ignorant to put things down. just like the people who say rap isn't music or hard rock is just loud noise. ignorance.

not sayin any posts above me are peopl like this, it's just my take on things.

[super_orr]

Originally Posted by Bertmark

This is quite frankly, complete bullshit. Tell that to Bryan Danielson. Arguably the best wrestler in the world, and he could get a job at WWE in an instant because all the top guys there love him. But he thinks WWE sucks, so he won't work there, because a) he hates the terrible childish style, b) he earns more money on the independant circuit, and c) it means somebody is always telling you how to work and you get no freedom as an employee. Most wrestlers who are half decent in the US are now either not under contrat to those big promotions or they're looking for a way out of their contracts because they're so miserable and they want to be able to wrestle more seriously. And it's a growing trend.

WWE is a severe perversion of what pro wrestling was and what it should be. So is Muto's AJPW. So is all the WWEish goings on in NJPW now. WWE might be where the most money is made, but that doesn't mean it's the pinnacle of anything except marketing, it still sucks. Just like McDonald's is the most profitable resturant in the world, but that doesn't mean they're the pinnicale of dining and all other resturaunts should try be McDonalds, or that evey chef aspires to work at McDonalds.

Another well though out post, with good points. That is like 3 in a row, has hell frozen over, or was the length of my initial post powerful enough to scare away the trolls?

Thank you. Excellent point.

[USARMYSOLDIER]

Pro Wrestlers are definitely athletes who do crazy things and destroy their bodies just as much if not more than mma fighters.
It's just that people hear that it's fake so they think it's easy.