[gogoyomama]

don't diminish bas. you guys are making my head hurt. Trash The Thread

[Sven Jaxon]

So now we are blaming people for the rules they had to compete under? Paccrase helped pave the way for modern mma to go mainstream. I do not care about the works, or the rules, it was one of the early venues for people who were slowly becoming known as mixed martial artists. People might not like this but without pancrase there is no Ken Shamrock. Ken eventually worked for the wwf opening him up to a much larger fan base (at the time) and helped people who were curious to learn more about mma. Pride and the UFC had different rules, so do other organizations, it is all MMA.

[Endocet]

people dont like bas around here anymore i guess, that sucks.

Liver Kick always FTW

[Love Glove]

Originally Posted by alphamale

Bas fought in what was available to him, and did it undeniably well against some legends.

Its easy to make the case that the rule restrictions in pancrase actually was a disadvantage to bas, as especially early he was primarily a striker, and padded shins plus no fists lessened his tools.

I think you're as close to the reality of it as anyone has come, so far.

TS probably means well in his observations and opinions, just a shame that an adolescent slanging match broke out to tarnish what otherwise could've been a decent discussion.

My take on it, for what its worth:

At the time of Pancrase, full contact fighting was NOT as accepted or widespread, as it is today.
In fact, I recall reading that the Pancrase rules were more lenient, in terms of doing legitimate damage, than other things at that time, in that part of the world.
MMA rules, as we now understand them, have not always been so brutal, and in the early days, it took a while to be able to fight under "no rules", as it were.

The early UFC's had practically no rules (and dont Joe Son know about that), with only eye-gouging and fish-hooking (I think) being illegal.

Pancrase was a step foward in the evolution of NHB fighting, I believe.

Now, on to Bas.

While not being the greatest ever fighter, he does carry a lot of respect in the game, possibly as much for being one of the leading personalities/aficionados...
His fighting exploits being only a small part of why he is revered as he is.
I think his overall contribution to MMA (commentary, pundit, trainer, etc) warps his success as a fighter and possibly makes more people think more highly of him, thus giving more credit everywhere, as a fighter included.

With that said though, if you watch the fight science vids, you'll see that Bas has one of the most destructive kicks ever recorded. The scientist made Bas repeat the test coz he was so shocked at the results! So, Pancrase rules, as somenody alluded to already, probably hindered Bas more than anything.

Bottom line, I think he's a great guy and one of the MMA legends, even nif he wasn't the greatest fighter ever.
To say that he isn't an MMA god because he got a "lucky" decision over the Monster, or that his Pancrase exploits are not worthy of respect due to "non-modern day MMA rules is harsh and unfair, imo.

But, everyone is entitled to their opinion...
...as long as they are not rammed down someones throat, or belittlede when not agreed upon.

[Il Wop-O]

The TS is a jackhole! First off, he seems to have Dana White syndrome, wherein MMA and NHB are synonymous with UFC. It's true that Pancrase had different rules than UFC, but that doesn't change the fact that it involved STRIKING, WRESTLING, and SUBMISSIONS, which makes it, by definition, mixed martial arts! Pancrase had different rules, that means it wasn't UFC, that's all. I prefer Pride rules - so I guess to me, UFC isn't "true" MMA? I mean, after all, in a "real" fight, if there's a chain-link fence and you're against it, you sure as hell can grab it to prevent takedowns or help getting back to your feet! In a REAL fight, you can knee a wrestler when he's in 3 or 4 point stance! In a real fight, refs don't stand you up when the fight gets "boring" on the ground! UFC isn't MMA, I guess?!?

People fight where they fight. UFC. IFL, Rings, Shooto, Pancrase, Pride, Gladiator Challenge, who gives a crap? It's MMA, and guys learn to fight within the rule-set of their contracted organization.

One other thing, TS. You sound like a quintessential keyboard warrior asshole when you're disrespecting fighters, calling other anonymous posters "Kid" without knowledge of their age or life experience, and running your length of time as a fan and Sherdog poster as some sort of credential. Sherdog member since 2003 and over 6,000 posts? Who gives a shit? I guess I've been too busy training, fighting, working, and raising a family to compare to those numbers....

As a former boxer & kickboxer and still a BJJ competitor (who still endures the soreness & injuries strictly for the love of competing), I have a world of respect for ANY fighter, from the young amateur & pro fighters in our fight club, to the greats in the big orgs, and to the legends and pioneers of the sport. Assholes like you that disrespect guys who have the balls to man up & fight, booing at fighters when they don't sufficiently "entertain" you, are what really get to me. Have an opinion, sure, great. But don't labor under the illusion that your's is any more valuable than "Kid's", or that it is even particularly valid.

[whitefalcon]

Originally Posted by Shemhazai

What's with the "it wasn't real MMA" arguments? Although Pancrase doesn't allow closed fist strikes to the head, people can still (and do still) get knocked out with palm heel strikes, so to say that it's an entirely different sport is a bit silly. Besides, one could just as well say that the UFC isn't real MMA because it doesn't allow soccer kicks and knees on the ground, that Rings wasn't real MMA because it didn't allow GNP, or that Pride wasn't real MMA because it didn't allow elbows.

Best post. TS's thinking is typical of the modern MMA fan: UFC is the only "true" MMA, UFC rules are the only "true" MMA rules, UFC fighters are the only "true" fighters, etc. MMA = mixed martial arts, which includes ANY system that involves combined ground, striking and submission styles - not necessarily UFC, PRIDE, Pancrase, or Vale Tudo rules with the exculsion of others. Each one of these is a FORM of MMA but they are ALL MMA, as they ALL involve ground fighting, striking and subs in some form. The only difference between all of them are the specific rule set each one uses.

TS would have been more correct to state that Bas has only had 3 true UFC rules fights. But of course that wouldnt have sounded as inflammatory, and he couldnt have made himself sound as superior to all of us.

Yeah, everybody likes Bas. He's funny and personable, great to the fans, and seems like a great guy overall, which is cool. But dont ever try to deny the fact that Bas is a badass and one of the best fighters in history. Just because he fought more Pancrase and Muay Thai fights than UFC doesnt make him any less of an MMA giant.

Bas would tool all but the elite in todays UFC. By the time he retired he had worked himself into a pretty damn good ground fighter, and his striking was awesome, arguably better than anyone in the modern UFC LHW and HW class today. In today's weight-cutting UFC he'd probably even fight as a MW, and he had at least as good of a chin as Hendo; he'd be top 3 in that division for sure, right up there with Spider and Dan.

TS is full of himself, and shit.

[Article125]

Pancrase has always been a pretty gimped form of MMA. There is a reason Yuki Kondo was stomped practically every time he fought in the ufc or pride...

That being said, there have been some great fighters who have been able to make a solid transition to modern mma.

[Love Glove]

Originally Posted by whitefalcon

TS is full of himself, and shit.

Ha ha, if he is full of himself AND full of shit, then, by logical deduction...

...he IS shit! lol

[Article125]

Originally Posted by alphamale

Its easy to make the case that the rule restrictions in pancrase actually was a disadvantage to bas, as especially early he was primarily a striker, and padded shins plus no fists lessened his tools.

I agree with this. Not to mention the Pancrase boots made sinking in leglocks infinitely easier. Especially when you are fighting someone like Ken Shamrock, who is already proficient with them as is. That, to me, is a pretty significant disadvantage

[Scooter Brown]

I was going to complain that there are already several other copies of this same thread and tell you to use the goddamned search function but then I realized I saw you posting in at least one of them. Stop spamming the board.

In one of those I told you several things that were wrong about those rules.

Originally Posted by Flexwave2003

Its a great place to learn skills that could translate into MMA, but there is an entirely different reality when closed fist strikes are allowed. When elbows and knees are allowed, and especially when soccer kicks can be employed.

...

Its one thing to walk into a ring with rules that prevent elbows, knees, closed fist strikes. But its an entirely different story to walk into the cage or ring when those rules are indeed in place from the very beginning.

Closed fist strikes were allowed to the body. Before the gloves many people chose to use palm strikes even when closed fist strikes were allowed. Elbows to the body were allowed. KNEES TO THE HEAD STANDING OR ON THE GROUND WERE ALLOWED.




Bas beat Kevin Randleman. Lots of people think he didn't but they are stupid. It wasn't even close.