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Here is an interesting debate between a prominent Christian and atheist I thought you all would enjoy. It dicuss a lot of the issues you are grappling with. It is very interesting and well worth the long read.
The 2002 Great Debate: Atheism vs. Christianity
Testing the Case: Which View Prevailed?
Copyright 2002 by Bob and Gretchen Passantino[1]
On December 8, 2002, atheist Michael Newdow and Christian Cliffe Knechtle participated in "The Great Debate: Atheism vs. Christianity."
The debate was held at Rolling Hills Christian Church in Sacramento, California and was broadcast live via satellite to around 1,500 churches and other Christian organizations, sponsored by Church Communication Network (CCN).
Pastor Jeff Bigelow hosted at the church, and hosts for the CCN program were Christian authors and speakers Lee Strobel and Mark Mittelberg.
Bob and Gretchen Passantino, have sponsored and moderated many debates and have participated frequently as debaters. They watched and evaluated this debate and will discuss which side prevailed both from a technical standpoint (who engaged the rules of debate the best) and from a content standpoint (whose case was more compelling?). In addition, they've listed some answers Christians can use when they find themselves debating the truthfulness of Christianity, whether informally with a non-believing friend, or in a more formal setting such as that of this debate. They submitted this report, which we share with you in the hope it will enhance your viewing of this debate video.[2]
The final vote tally was 92% in favor of the Christian position as the winner of the debate, with less than 8% in favor of the atheist position.
The Passantinos' comments appear in italics interspersed throughout the summary below.
We believe that the Christian side prevailed in this debate, both technically and by content. We are evangelical Christians and have spent 30 years in Christian apologetics, or giving reasons for faith. Despite our personal convictions, we have attempted to approach our analysis objectively. We believe there is enough evidence in the summary and our comments to support our conclusion. Because we are convinced Dr. Newdow lost the debate, it is reasonable that our comments on his portions of the debate are more numerous, critical, and lengthy than our comments on Pastor Knechtle's portions. Note: Because there is so much repetition during the debate, and because so many issues were dealt with adequately in the debate, we have not attempted to include our own thoughts on each point of each part of the debate. The representative sampling presented should encourage you to do your own homework to address issues we do not augment.
Summary of the Debate
Usually a formal debate argues positively and negatively on a central proposition. For example, a good debate resolution would be "Does God Exist?" This proposition can be answered positively or in the affirmative by a Christian, and negatively or by denial by an atheist or agnostic. The resolution presented for this debate gives both sides more latitude than normal and allows each side to present as strong a case as he can for his own world view.
Opening Statement - The Case for Christian Theism: The Evidence Points Toward Christianity
Pastor Knechtle began by summarizing what each debater should be able to produce in defense of his position. He said that Dr. Newdow should present a positive case for the atheist viewpoint. Pastor Knechtle was prepared to present a positive case for Christian theism.
Pastor Knechtle offered 5 arguments for the truth of Christian theism:[3]
Argument 1: The origin of the universe demands an uncaused, timeless, very, very powerful Source that we call the Christian God. He proposed three alternatives to explain the existence of the universe: (1) Something came from nothing; (2) The universe itself is eternal; or (3) The universe was created by something (or someone) eternal. Pastor Knechtle argued that whatever begins to be has a cause; the universe began to be; therefore, the universe had a cause.
This is called the cosmological argument for the existence of God. There are various forms of this argument used by different philosophers, the Thomistic, the Leibnizian, and the Kalam.[4]
Argument 2: The intricacy and complexity of the universe on both a macro and a micro level indicates an Intelligent Designer. Pastor Knechtle pointed out that if oxygen levels on earth were higher or lower, animal, human, and plant life couldn't exist. If the earth were closer to the sun it would be too hot to support life; if it were farther away it would be too cold. He argued that the inter-dependent complexities of the cell, the human eye, and the eco-system displayed intelligent design that could only come from an Intelligent Designer, such as the Christian concept of God. He gave the classic analogy of the watch: If you find a watch on the sidewalk, you assume it was made by a watchmaker, that it did not come to be as a product of accidental combination of atoms over time. In the same way, the universe displays even greater evidence of design, so we can logically infer an Intelligent Designer (God).
This is called the teleological argument for the existence of God. The focus on the exact conditions necessary for human life is often called the anthropic principle.[5]
There is a new movement among scientists called the "Intelligent Design" (ID) movement. Articulated by retired law professor Philip Johnson,[6] the view held by the ID movement says that the specified complexity of the physical world cannot be explained adequately by the naturalistic theory that mere matter and energy in motion over time can produce the "irreducible complexity" observed in biology or the "specified complexity" necessary to produce Earth and life on Earth.[7] For example, biology is unable to account for the information communicated by DNA. It is important to distinguish the "stuff" or matter of DNA from the information of DNA. "Stuff" is genetic material, atoms in motion; information is the rational communication of what might be on the material, producing what becomes to be. By analogy, when we refer to the encyclopedia, we're not referring to the matter of wood pulp, dye, and glue, but to the ideas represented by the wood pulp, dye, and glue. One could (theoretically) "explain" the material stuff of DNA naturally (although that explanation would inevitably run head-on into Pastor Knechtle's first reason, the cosmological argument). One cannot naturalistically explain the information that governs the material stuff and produces a walking, talking, thinking person like, for example, Michael Newdow.[8]
Argument 3: The existence of moral absolutes (such as justice, truth, good, etc.) can only be explained by an infinite Moral Lawgiver, or God. Pastor Knechtle argued that ethics are not merely a matter of convention, agreement, intuition, or genetic programming, but instead reveal the existence of a Moral Lawgiver whose ethical nature provides an adequate foundation for moral absolutes in human society. He argued that, for example, the Nazi Holocaust against the Jews was not merely subjectively wrong or evil, but objectively and absolutely evil. He argued that individuals might consider it evil through intuition, societies might judge it by its social destructiveness, and communities might agree that it is evil because the majority of people agree; but none of those subjective, human-based ethics can adequately account for the absolute ethic that it is always and absolutely wrong to do these things - or, for example, to torture innocent children. Such absolute ethics are not dependent on human thought or conscience, but on the Moral Lawgiver who is beyond the limits of the universe in which we live.
This is called the moral argument for the existence of God. The moral argument can be used not only to show that God must be the source of absolute ethics, but also to justify the Christian understanding of why there is injustice, evil, and suffering in the world. One can apply moral absolutes grounded in God to justify our outrage at the injustice we see in the world around us. At the same time, since moral absolutes are grounded in God, we can be assured that there is meaning in suffering and that justice will ultimately prevail in God's provision for the future.[9]
Argument 4: Humanity's desire for meaning and value in life presupposes the existence of God. Pastor Knechtle argued that every human society throughout history and around the world has a belief in God, even though their understanding of God may differ. He argued that our innate desire to experience the transcendent, to have value and meaning even after death, can only be accounted for if there is a God who implanted these beliefs and desires in us. He quoted the early Christian church father Augustine, who said, "Our hearts are restless until they find their meaning in God."
Pastor Knechtle contrasted this search for significance with the atheist world view in which life has no transcendent meaning and there is no significance beyond the biological. He quoted the existentialist Camus, who argued for existential meaninglessness. Pastor Knechtle characterized the atheist world view as "life is nothing more than a cosmic joke." Pastor Knechtle used the analogy of the headstone: between your birth date and your death date is the sum total of your life: a mere dash between life and death. On the contrary, he argued, we are created for the purpose of knowing and loving God, and God loves us so much he sent his Son to die for us. In the atheist world, according to Pastor Knechtle, atheist Michael Newdow's love for his daughter is nothing but a bio-chemical reaction, it cannot be justified or grounded as a real value without God.
Argument 5: The bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ is so verifiable historically that it passes any reasonable test for history or ancient literature. It can be accepted as not only reasonable, but a true historical event.[10]
This argument ties in with the previous four arguments in two ways. First, it is itself an argument for the existence of God because it argues that only God could do what Jesus did, raise himself from the dead. Second, the one who rose from the dead has demonstrated the credentials necessary to tell us that God exists and what God is like. Now Jesus' words in the New Testament document become more than just historical statements. They have risen above or out of mere history to be revealed as God's words speaking about reality.
Pastor Knechtle continued, if Jesus rose from the grave, then this validates his claims to be the Son of God, and we can know that God exists, that he loves us, and that we can have a relationship with him because of Jesus Christ.
Pastor Knechtle argued that our first accounts of the bodily resurrection (found in 1 Corinthians 15) date from within 20 years of the actual event.
At this point, Pastor Knechtle is using the New Testament books as historical documents reporting an historical event. Elsewhere he shows the historical reliability of the documents that make them valid historical sources. That the New Testament is God's Word is an entirely different issue that goes beyond the scope of this debate. Interestingly, while Pastor Knechtle gives a range of 20 years, even some liberal scholars agree that the content of the opening verses to 1 Corinthians 15 represent material adopted by the first Christians within a decade of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
This account of the resurrection appearances relates that more than 500 people were eyewitnesses of the resurrected Christ. He provided the evidence that Jesus actually died on the cross and that the tomb was empty after three days. He argued that the resurrection accounts have the ring of authenticity, especially in that those who became believers had started out as disillusioned disciples who were not expecting a resurrection. There is also a ring of authenticity in the record that women were the first witnesses of the resurrected Christ. Since women in that time were not considered reliable witnesses, someone merely inventing a resurrection would not have concocted their story in a way that had the risen Jesus witnessed first by those who could not testify in court. Because of the physical demonstrations the risen Christ made and the life-changing impact those had on his followers (whose hopes had been dashed at his death), we can be assured that this resurrection was physical and bodily; it was not an illusion, mysticism, wish fulfillment, or spiritual projection.
British scholar and Christian author C. S. Lewis noted, "If Christianity was something we were making up, of course we could make it easier. But it isn't. We can't compete, in simplicity, with people who are inventing religions. How could we? We're dealing with fact. Of course anyone can be simple if he has not facts to bother about."[11]
Pastor Knechtle used the apostle Thomas to represent the contemporary "empiricist," who will only believe what he can verify with his senses. In Thomas's case, Christ appeared and challenged him to touch his body and his wounds to verify empirically that he was the same Christ, that he had been dead, and was now alive. He reminded the audience that Jesus's disciples didn't die only for what they believed, but for what they actually saw - the resurrected Christ. He also argued the contrary - people may die for what they merely believe to be true, but they won't for what they know to be false.
In apologetics, or the defense of the faith, this fifth argument is often referred to as an evidential argument for the truth of Christian Theism. The evidence for the historical Jesus, his teachings, miracles, and resurrection from the dead, is so overwhelming that it places Christianity far above any other world religion. What distinguishes Christianity from all other religions is not its morality - Buddhism promotes moral behavior, not its longevity - Judaism and Hinduism are older, but its claim that God became man and redeemed the world by his own sacrifice. This is Christianity's strongest attribute, since it can stand the test of history and historical empiricism. We can prove what others only theorize, meditatively conjure, or feel. It is also Christianity's greatest vulnerability, because if one could disprove Jesus and his resurrection, one would disprove Christianity itself. As Sir Norman Anderson remarked, Christianity is, truly, "the witness of history" - its original followers died not for a system of rituals or list of behaviors, but for the empirically verifiable and historically preserved fact of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. As the apostle Paul said, "if Christ is not raised, our faith is in vain and we are of all people most miserable." [12]
Conclusion: Pastor Knechtle concluded his Opening Statement by arguing that his five points provided the reasons and evidence that Christian Theism is true, and that, therefore, Atheism cannot be true. He said that his points showed that there is an uncaused, timeless, powerful Intelligent Designer who provides moral absolutes, meaning and purpose for human life, and who meets the test of history and literature as the resurrected Jesus Christ of the first century.
Pastor Knechtle's Opening Statement was strong both technically and in content. He clearly outlined what each debater should produce to have his case prevail. He clearly delineated five arguments in support of his own case. He was careful not to use theological or philosophical vocabulary that would be new to his audience. He clearly understood that for his case to prevail, he must prove not only that God exists, but that the Christian God exists. His first four arguments argued for Theism, his last argument for Christian theism. Although entire books have been written with rigorous academic standards, Pastor Knechtle presented his case as simply as possible to reach his general audience.
Opening Statement - The Case for Atheism: The Evidence Points Toward the Reality that There Is No God
Dr. Newdow began his presentation by noting that this is not his area of specialty; that he is a medical doctor and an attorney specializing in First Amendment issues. He is more familiar with arguments about removing "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance than he is with arguments against the existence of God. He said he had no background in philosophy, theology, or religion. He said that if he did not do well in the debate, the audience should look toward other, more capable atheists for better arguments.
From a tactical viewpoint, this was a poor opening. Even if the debater is afraid he might lose, he shouldn't want his audience to entertain the notion that he is unprepared and likely to lose. Additionally, he casts doubt on his own commitment to present the best case he can for his world view. If he is so ill-prepared, why did he consent to debate the issue? Since he had several months to prepare, why didn't he spend the time and energy necessary to research a strong case? He may be complimented for his candor and honesty, but he loses the respect of the audience by appearing unprepared.
Argument 1: Dr. Newdow's first argument was to dismiss the terms of the debate and claim that he had nothing to prove since he was not making a statement about existence, but about non-existence. In other words, he argued, the burden of proof is on the one who affirms that something or someone (in this case "God") exists, not on the one denying such an existence. He declared that he could not be construed to have lost the debate simply because he could not prove that God doesn't exist.
Both debaters agreed on the resolution to be debated, Atheism vs. Christianity, (and the question of which way the evidence points) several months before the debate. Now is not the time for Dr. Newdow to attempt to change the resolution. Surely he came to do more than testify that he personally lacks belief in God. The very act of signing up for a debate on Atheism vs. Christianity indicates that one is convinced he can give positive reasons for one's own position. Dr. Newdow indicated this to be the case in an interview in the Sacramento Bee newspaper published prior to the debate, in which he said he hoped to win over those who "are on the fence." Clearly, he was trying to convince them, not that he lacked belief in God, but that there are strong reasons they shouldn't believe in him, either.
Argument 2: Dr. Newdow's second argument was to make a new debate resolution: Using empirical methods alone, the existence of God cannot be established. Dr. Newdow declared that the only evidence he would accept for the existence of God would be empirical evidence, that is, evidence that can be tested by the senses, such as is done in scientific experiments. "Show me God," he said, "and I'll believe in him." Based on these two premises (he doesn't have to prove anything; and any existence can only be proved empirically), Dr. Newdow declared that he had no evidence that God exists and so he has won the debate by default.
Dr. Newdow tried to limit areas of proof to the empirical, as though empiricism is the only way to affirm the existence of anything. But it is reasonable for the Christian to argue that the existence of God, who is non-material and not part of creation, should be affirmed by evidence appropriate to his Being, not merely or only by evidence that is by definition limited to the material world.
Dr. Newdow (at least implicitly) believes that there are things that are real that are not material. He believes in the laws of thought or rules of logic (the system by which we test the reasonableness of any hypothesis - the very elements he is attempting to apply in this debate). He believes in the absolute nature of truth (which is a value that can be applied to the material world but is not itself material). He believes in the existence of his own self-consciousness and rational mental processes (he is not merely a brain - matter and energy in motion).[13] He believes in historical events (which may have been empirically testable by those who were present at the time, but are not empirically testable by us today) such as the adoption of the Bill of Rights amendments to the U.S. Constitution. Christians would add that we also believe in the reality of absolute ethics (the difference between good and evil, right and wrong); of aesthetic values (such as art, music, and literature, which are expressed empirically but which communicate non-material ideas and thoughts); of relationships such as love, hate, and indifference; and of non-material beings like God, angels, and demons. Whatever is abstract, invariant, and universal cannot be contained wholly in material reality but stands above material reality and affects material reality (e.g., the principles of mathematics tell us that 2+2=4, a non-material expression of relationship that can be applied to the material world to count the total number of material apples if there are two apples in each of two baskets).[14]
In conclusion, Dr. Newdow has betrayed his agreement to the debate proposition by trying to change it, he has illogically restricted acceptable test methods to the material, and he has forfeited any ability to defend the reality of anything not material that he actually believes exists, such as thoughts themselves or his love for his daughter.
Dr.Newdow then modified his approach by saying that he didn't need comprehensive empirical proof, but at least reasonable and probable proof. He used the analogy of trying to prove that cows exist. Someone might not be able to produce a cow on request, but he should at least be able to prove that there are cud-eating, double-stomached, grazing quadrapeds with cloven hoofs before others would be persuaded to believe that cows exist. Turning back to the debate issue, Dr. Newdow asked, "What level of evidence do I have for believing in God?"
Dr. Newdow's sleight-of-mind trick here is obvious: he seems to be open to reasonable evidence for God's existence, when, by his very pretense, he has valued empirical evidence as not only the best, but the only acceptable evidence for God. Although this is not the place in the debate for Dr. Newdow to respond to Pastor Knechtle's opening statement, Pastor Knechtle's opening statement not only showed the reality of non-material things and appropriate tests for those things, but also provided tangible, empirical evidence for the existence of God. For the empirical tests he provided (1) the existence of the contingent, non-eternal, came-into-existence universe; (2) the existence of an ordered, complex universe imprinted with the image of the Intelligent Designer; and (3) God manifest in the flesh in the person of Jesus Christ, who proved his identity by the empirical event of the bodily resurrection. For the reality of non-material things and the tests for them he provided (4) the existence of universal, abstract, and invariant ethics and (5) aesthetics.
Following his demand for empirical evidence, Dr. Newdow brought up an analogy to illustrate his belief that research and scientific data are necessary to determine any fact. His analogy concerned the drug DES that used to be given to women to help prevent miscarriages. He related that the medication was in use for years and thought to be effective by personal anecdote rather than by any statistical sampling. When the FDA began testing for its effectiveness, however, it was discovered that it was no more effective than a placebo.
This analogy only has value for the present debate if it is the case that Christians believe in God totally apart from any rational inquiry or evidence. Since it is not the case that Christians believe in God without warrant, the analogy is meaningless. The Christian could turn the argument on its head by asserting that Dr. Newdow has embraced the "no-God" world view without testing it to see if it really has validity. It is also interesting that Dr. Newdow seems to dismiss any historical value for truth (relying entirely on empiricism for the existence of God and the resurrection of Christ), but here he urges us to believe that the historical accounts of the DES discovery and administration can be trusted.
Argument 3: Dr. Newdow reviewed what he considers to be the necessary elements of a good scientific test: (1) randomness (test subjects must be of a great enough number over a wide enough spectrum to allow for random results dictated by the sample pool rather than the medication); (2) control conditions (nothing extraneous to the experiment can be introduced); (3) double blind (neither the subjects nor the experimenters can know who gets the drug and who gets a placebo); and (4) prospective (it must be repeatable with future testing).
Applying these four criteria to the existence of God, Dr. Newdow says God fails. In other words, he concluded, there is no scientific data establishing the existence of God. One can't use statistical abnormalities to prove one's case. Evidence for God is a case of statistical abnormality; His existence is not actually supported by the evidence.
Again, Dr. Newdow is failing to answer the question at hand. The elements of his version of a good scientific test are irrelevant if what is needed is a good historical test, or a good logical test. And it is also true that Dr. Newdow's belief in logical minds, rational inference, and coherent communication are not testable according to his scientific test. Even his assertion that the universe "just came to be" is not testable scientifically.
Argument 4: Belief in God, according to Dr. Newdow, is as credible as belief in faith healers, UFOs, crop circles, astrology, psychics, or the miracle fat-burning product available on cable TV. Belief in God is as supported by the evidence as belief in any other mythical creature such as the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus.
Although Dr. Newdow presented this as an argument, it is not actually an argument at all. In logic this is called guilt by association. If Dr. Newdow can associate Christianity with things that everyone agrees are imaginary, mythological hoaxes, or fairy tales, then Christianity becomes nothing more than that. But Christianity is not the same class as Santa Claus, crop circles, and As-Seen-On-TV miracles, as Pastor Knechtle has already demonstrated. Dr. Newdow evidently should keep his categories straight and not compare apples to donkeys or God to Santa Claus.
Argument 5: Dr. Newdow pointed to a variety of factors to account for why so many people believe in God: (1) they respect their elders or previous generations; (2) they feel better if they believe in God and it seems to give their lives transcendent meaning; (3) they twist the data to serve their belief; (4) they are gullible and believe what they want to believe, regardless of the data; (5) they re-interpret every event as supporting belief in God, whether it does or not (e.g., if Aunt Mary recovers, God healed her; if Aunt Mary dies, it must have been God's will); (6) they continue to believe what they have been raised to believe (e.g., Muslim children grow up to Muslims, Buddhists to be Buddhists, etc.); (7) they enjoy the social and personal benefits they receive from believing in God; (8) they are unwilling to criticize or closely examine what they already believe.
It may be the case that some people believe in Christianity for any or several of the reasons listed in this argument. As a matter of fact, many people are atheists for the same or similar reasons. However, the fact that some believe for inadequate reasons does not determine whether God exists or not. For example, one could believe that mail appears in our mailboxes because little elves live in small nests at the bottom of each mailbox post manufacturing our mail on their little printing presses, after which they climb the posts and deposit the letters inside the mailbox. Even if Dr. Newdow were to prove the little elves don't exist, that would not mean mail doesn't really appear in our mailboxes. The postal carrier will continue to deliver our mail whether we believe in him or not, and whether we have our own fanciful story to explain his deliveries or not. Similarly, some Christians might believe in God because their parents did, or because it helps them cope with life - but this does not negate the fact that God really does exist.
Conclusion: Dr. Newdow posed a challenge to the mostly Christian audience: How many of you pray? How many of you believe God hears your prayers? How many of your believe God answers your prayers? When most people raised their hands to all of the questions, Dr. Newdow said, "Then all of you pray right now that God will appear to me on this stage so that I can believe in him." He waited a few seconds and concluded, "God didn't appear, so I guess he doesn't exist."
This was Dr. Newdow's main point and he returned to it repeatedly throughout the debate. He really seemed to believe that if God did not appear to him as commanded, he had won the debate. Nothing could be further from the truth. This argument is raised so often by skeptics that responses to it are many and powerful.
First, if God did appear to Dr. Newdow, Dr. Newdow would probably not believe it anyway - he would chalk it up to a clever special effect by the Christians, hallucination on his part from some bad mushrooms he ate before the debate, auto-suggestion from the extreme mental pressure he endured preparing, an imposter posing as God, etc. Such individual, subjective experience is not valid.
Second, if God had appeared as Jesus Christ to Dr. Newdow, neither Dr. Newdow nor anyone else would be able to verify merely by looking that this was the same man who walked in Galilee nearly 2000 years ago. There are no eyewitnesses with us who can testify that "Yes, this is the carpenter's son. I followed his ministry for three years, lost my faith when he was killed, and was restored to faith when he appeared to me after he had been in the grave for three days." The Bible itself tells us not to believe anything without corroborating evidence (see Deut. 19:15-17 and John 5:31). That is why the New Testament evidence is superior to a Dr. Newdow-provoked appearance. Second Peter 1:16 declares, "For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty."
Third, God has no moral responsibility to appear on command. Imagine this: we met Dr. Newdow earlier in the fall. He was pleasant to talk to and agreeable about talking in the future. Now let's say hypothetically that one of our students doubts we talked to the real Dr. Newdow. In fact, the student isn't even sure if a Dr. Newdow even exists. Maybe he's simply the Passantinos' caricature of an atheist. So we give our student Dr. Newdow's phone number, and he dials it, getting the doctor's voice mail. Here's his message: "Dr. Newdow, I doubt if you even exist. I don't believe the Passantinos actually met you and talked with you. I think you're just a figment of their imagination, their wildest wish fulfillment of atheism. I demand that you call me back right now and prove to me you exist. I'll give you 60 seconds to return my call." Even if Dr. Newdow had received the message and had the ability to return the call within the time limit, he would be under no obligation to satisfy our student's demand. In fact, he could reasonably refuse the student's demand as rude, inconsiderate, and presumptuous. And we would all chuckle as our student runs around the country saying, "Michael Newdow doesn't exist because I've never seen him. And he didn't call me back."
Fourth, God chose to manifest himself in the incarnation in a culture that was best able to test his claims. If he appeared today, not only would we immediately think "special effects," but we would be capable of producing an imitation "God appearance" much more readily than could people of a pre-technological culture (e.g., Did you see the video footage of President John F. Kennedy talking to Forest Gump?). Our post-Christian culture doesn't even consider the possibility of a true manifestation of God, much less does our culture have reliable methods of testing a God manifestation. In the culture of Jesus's day people believed that miracles were possible, but they also knew they could be tricked. (See, for example, the story of the apostle Paul exposing the sorcerer in Acts 13:6-13.) For this reason they had tests outlined in the Old Testament and affirmed by Jesus in the New Testament. Today one can start a religion just by claiming to be Jesus Christ. In Jesus's day one's own testimony was not good enough (Jesus even said his own testimony apart from corroborating evidence was invalid - see John 5:31ff). One had to have corroborating evidence (in Jesus's case, the predictions of the Old Testament prophets, the endorsement of John the Baptist, the correspondence between Jesus's teachings and those God already gave in the Old Testament, the voice of God and appearance of the Holy Spirit at Jesus's Baptism, the miracles he performed, his prediction that Jerusalem would be destroyed 40 years in advance of Titus and the Roman army's successful attack, and his own resurrection from the dead).
God manifested himself in Christ to those who were unbelievers or doubters who did not expect him to rise from the dead, over a period of 40 days, in a variety of circumstances, to a variety of people, in a climate where the eyewitness testimony could be challenged. He came to a culture where accurate memory was trained into people and tested repeatedly as a normal form of preserving facts and events. He was also followed by associates who performed the same kinds of miracles he had performed.
Again, the resurrection appearances were over a 40 day period, not just a one time appearance on a debate stage. Therefore God couldn't simply appear to Dr. Newdow and preserve God's own much higher standard of testing for truth. God's biblical standards for believing any testimony are much more rigorous than Dr. Newdow's simple "show me."[15]
To use Dr. Newdow's own vocabulary, a chance appearance on the debate stage could be a mere statistical abnormality, nothing on which to base one's eternal destiny. On the contrary, Jesus's appearance in time and history with, as the New Testament says, "many infallible proofs," is far superior to Dr. Newdow's isolated experience. It provides overwhelming "data" of the kind to which he ought to give careful consideration.
Fifth, if God were to appear specially to Dr. Newdow on December 8, 2002 in Sacramento, California, that would be insufficient to convince anyone who wasn't there or at any later date. God would have to appear every day everywhere, perhaps causing the sun to perform figure eights in the air in order to convince everyone all the time. But if God did that, then his miracles would become everyday manifestations of nature and we would probably still resist believing in him.
In fact, God gave us the best proof by appearing at a point in history as Jesus Christ, providing both followers and unbelievers with many infallible proofs, not only during his natural lifetime but over a 40 day period after his resurrection - to those who had known him and recognized him (cf. Luke 24:39 and John 20:28) and to those who had not known him before (cf. Acts 9:1-19). Jesus Christ provided a witness that launched a true and life-giving religion and gave us evidence for all time to believe in and trust God.
Dr. Newdow finished with questions directed to Pastor Knechtle:
If God is all good, why is there evil in the world?
If God is all powerful, why are humans all messed up and imperfect?
Why did God forbid Adam and Eve to learn by banning them from the tree of knowledge?
Where is God? I don't see him, hear him, touch him, taste him, or smell him.
By what empirical means can you show me God?
Why does God have to resort to heaven and hell? Couldn't he have just made us perfect?
Why is God jealous?
Why are there so many conflicting religions?
These eight questions resemble a shotgun blast of various issues about God rather than a rifle shot to the heart of the issue of the debate. The shotgun blast covers a large area with small pellets, and even though it might not cause much damage, it takes a long time to locate and remove each small pellet. The eight questions fall into two categories: (1) things Dr. Newdow doesn't understand about Christianity and (2) a rephrasing of his central theme: God must appear to me bodily and immediately or I won't believe in him. The second category has already been covered.
The first category only has significance if Dr. Newdow agrees that the Christian God exists, because they are not questions about God's existence but questions about his character or his abilities.[16] If Dr. Newdow would jump the hurdle of God creating the heavens and the earth, the small matters he lists here are inconsequential by comparison. If Dr. Newdow were willing to grant that God exists, then we could discuss whether or not he is good, kind to animals, a war monger, the source of the Bible, etc. For example, if Dr. Newdow were to concede the debate to Pastor Knechtle, then we could go to the next step and discuss with him why God allows evil. It may be exactly what the Bible says: God allows (but does not cause) evil because he has given humans moral responsibility and the ability (but not necessity) to sin. God will not always allow evil and rebellion against him. The day will come when God will punish those who persist in evil in a place called hell, and provide a perfect, sinless existence for those who trust Christ and forsake evil for good. Similar responses could be given for the rest of his questions.
The Opening Statements of each debater should have demonstrated two kinds of arguments: (1) evidence that the opponent's position is false, and (2) evidence that the debater's position is true. Based on the opening statements, Pastor Knechtle successfully addressed both issues. Dr. Newdow focused almost all of his attention on evidence against the opponent's position and consequently ignored his burden to affirm his own position.
Rebuttal - Each debater has 10 minutes to respond to the Opening Statement of his Opposer.
Pastor Knechtle made the following points:
Dr. Newdow has failed to give evidence that God does not exist, the terms of the debate;
Dr. Newdow has not supported his own case for atheism with evidence;
God won't show himself to you because you are not humble. He has no obligation to meet an antagonistic demand. If you were humble, you would allow God to choose his own way to reveal himself, and he has, in Jesus Christ.
The problem of suffering is more difficult for the atheist than the Christian. In our worldview, suffering and death has divine purpose and is ultimately met with divine justice. Also, when Pastor Knechtle's brother suffered the death of his daughter, he realized that he had lost his daughter to an accident, while God could fully empathize with him since he sent his own son intentionally to die on our behalf.
Sin, sickness, and death are the natural consequences of the bad or sinful choices made by Adam and Eve, who were given the freedom to disobey God in the Garden.
Points five and six presuppose the biblical doctrine that all of humanity was represented by Adam as our progenitor, so that the consequences of his actions bear on all humans descended from him. In the same way, the penalty for our estrangement from God is paid, not by each of us individually, but by the willing sacrifice of Jesus Christ, known because of his representative role as the "Second Adam" (cf. Romans 5:18, 1 Corinthians 15:45). If Dr. Newdow is asking for a Christian explanation for these issues, that is the basis for the Christian answer. Dr. Newdow may prefer no answer or reason for suffering and evil instead of to the Christian answer, but most people recognize the Christian answer as at least consistent with the Christian world view and, we would argue, ultimately the most satisfying.
One cannot indict the justice of God on the basis of a fallen world. He did not cause it to be fallen, but he works within it to bring redemption to those who believe.
Because God's character is unchanging and good, we can count on him even when we are not good.
Every time Jesus during his ministry encountered sickness and death, he healed and raised up people as a foretaste of the ultimate reconciliation that will come when God remakes the heavens and the earth.
Even though there are many religions, there is only one that is verified by historical inquiry, which leads us to the truth of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Jesus passes every test for a true Son of God - all the other religions' founders are dead and still in their graves; Christ is resurrected and his tomb is empty. His resurrection sets him apart from any other religious leaders.
Adam and Eve were excluded from the Garden of Eden for disobeying God, not for desiring knowledge. God did not forbid knowledge, but experiential knowledge of evil. His command protected them from evil; they left his protection and chose to disobey.
In his rebuttal, Dr. Newdow made the following points:
There is no empirical evidence for God such as I outlined before.
I do not have to prove God does not exist because it is not possible to prove a universal negative.
It is important to note that when a skeptic says, "It is not possible to prove a universal negative," that he is, himself, asserting and hoping you will accept that statement, which is, itself, a universal negative. Either he has argued in a circle, using what he is attempting to prove to prove what he is already using, in which case his argument is self-defeating and useless, or else he has some way to prove it, in which case it cannot be true that one cannot prove a universal negative (because he just did). As a matter of fact, it is difficult, but not impossible, to prove some universal negatives. Each assertion should be weighed on its own merits, not simply dismissed as impossible.
The Bible is a document 2000 years old, written between 20 and 80 years after the events recorded. As such it is completely unreliable as evidence. Additionally, the Bible is full of contrary data ("it's all over the place"). Nevertheless, just because I do not know the cause of the universe, that doesn't mean God is the cause.
I do not accept Pastor Knechtle's argument for the origin of the universe because, "there may or may not be any origin to the universe" and "who knows what a beginning even means?"
I wonder how Pastor Knechtle's acceptance of a "Big Bang" event billions of years ago coincides with the Bible's age of the universe at 6,000 years ago.
Dr. Newdow spent less time attacking the Bible than most skeptics do, but he couldn't resist in certain cases. This is one. Contrary to what many skeptics and Christians believe, the Bible does not explicitly declare the age of the universe - at 6,000 years or any other age. (Some publishers of the King James Version of the Bible insert 4004 BC above Genesis 1:1. This was their own seventeenth century interpretation printed on the page. It was not something written by the author of Genesis.) There are many Bible scholars who fully endorse the absolute truthfulness and inspiration of the Bible who hold differing views on the age of the universe. The Bible is primarily a book about redemption. It is not primarily a science textbook. It should not surprise us, then, that the little science that is referred to in scripture is referred to in general terms ("God created" rather than specific terms ("God created on such-and-such a day," etc.).
People believe in God because they don't know all of the answers to the "why" and "how" questions, so they just attribute it all to God. When we were unsophisticated in science and religion we said Apollo and his chariot pulled the sun through the sky every day. Now that we are more sophisticated we understand the rotation of the earth. The day will come when even religionists will be forced to agree that the "whys" and "hows" are better answered by science than by God.
Christianity is not like any other religion or ancient mythology. This subject has been studied carefully by scholars of religion, theology, and history. Those who try to compare Christianity to other religious mythologies do a disservice to both categories.[17]
One cannot argue from design for God, because design is present in nature as in the unique and regular features of snow flakes, ice crystals, and rock crystals. And beauty is in nature, too, so we don't have to attribute design and beauty to God.
This begs the question. While the regularity of flakes and crystals may result from natural law, coherent information cannot be accounted for without a Designer.[18]
Arguments for order go far beyond mere patterns, such as those seen in snowflakes and crystals, to actual information such as discussed earlier in the example of DNA. The repeating patterns in salt crystals, for instance, might be represented as ABABABABABABA. However, DNA contains information equivalent to sentences that have meaning. When we find information, we can infer it came from an intelligent source. Another example would be the ripples that Pastor Knechtle imagined seeing in the sand on the beach. Yes, that represents a pattern, but one that we would logically conclude was the result of the natural processes of the waves. But if we were to see the words, "John loves Mary," that obvioulsy constitutes information and we would automatically conclude there was an intelligent being behind the creation of those words. Thus, Dr. Newdow's reliance on crystals or snowflakes fails to shoot down the conclusion of intelligent design that we can legitimately draw from examples like DNA.[19]
Often atheists add to this response that arguments from design break down because there is so much deficiency in the natural world - an engineer, for example, would design a much more efficient leg for the horse so that horses could run faster with less effort and less chance to break down. If there is a God, he is not very good at what he does. We're glad these atheists aren't God and didn't get assigned the design job. Their "more efficient" horses' leg effectively robs the lion of his much-needed meal! God, in fact, designed everything to work harmoniously and, to borrow a popular phrase, to be "environmentally integrated." He was the ultimate in "Gaia" design (the whole earth and all of its contents in living symbiosis). Certainly there are genuine corruptions in the natural world, but Christian theism explains that: human sinfulness had material consequences on the whole earth. On the other hand, strict materialism doesn't have an answer for corruption in the natural world. If everything is a product of inexorable mindless matter in motion over time, with the fittest surviving and reproducing and the unfit dying out, then we should see more and more perfection in the world and less and less corruption - if any at all. The contrary is the reality we live with. The world is full of degeneracy (literally and morally), just as the Bible declares.
I do not accept Pastor Knechtle's argument about the unique complexity required for human life, including distance from the sun and available oxygen, as observations after the fact. If conditions were different, a different sort of life would have evolved within those different parameters.
Dr. Newdow could have amplified his rejection of the argument from design in points 7 and 8 above in this way: Pastor Knechtle's "watchmaker" must not be a very good watchmaker since the "watch" of the universe is nowhere near perfect. At most Christians have a little god who doesn't create very good watches; at best I can point to all the flaws in the universe to nullify your apparent design. Also, you can't argue probability back from the product to the cause. For example, by probability, the chances of dealing a royal flush in poker are minute. But occasionally it happens. If I were to deal you a royal flush, you couldn't argue back that it must happen all the time because it happened to you. We may have what appears to be a highly ordered, complex, designed universe today, but that doesn't mean we can assume that design - and its designer - are the ordinary order of the day. You are reading into the world what you want to find.
Christians can respond to this amplification of Dr. Newdow's answer in several ways. While design can be recognized and distinguished from randomness (chance) and natural law (necessity), thus indicating an intelligent designer behind the design, the quality of the design cannot properly be evaluated apart from considering the designer's purpose in creation and the needs of the situation involved. Furthermore, there is no such thing as "perfect" design. In principle, you could never look at a watch and conclude, this is the perfect watch, because (even apart from inherent limitations that physical matter itself places on precision in measurement), one could always imagine a different set of conditions that would require changes in the watch (e.g., a watch intended for fashion at the dinner table could come in any number of styles, or one meant for deep sea diving would be made to different specifications than would one meant to run in zero gravity in outer space). So, for a critic to come along and say, as many do say, "Boy, the Creator did a lousy job designing the human eye because he placed the optic nerve on the wrong side of the retina, causing the blind spot in peripheral vision," is invalid without considering the Creator's purpose and needs of the situation in creating the eye the way he did. Design is clearly evident in the eye, but attempting to evaluate just how close it is to some ideal eye is fallacious.[20]
First, if we accept the existence of God, then we are open to his explanation of the disorder in the world - it is a consequence of human sin and it will one day be corrected. Second, the skeptic cannot account even for his very own mind with which he is thinking about the idea of the perfect watchmaker. Like Pastor Knechtle's argument from desire, we can argue that the generation and exchange of ideas and concepts presupposes the ability to think abstractly, apart from the material evidence around us. That abstract thinking ability - not just brain function - can only be derived from the ultimate Thinker/Creator. In other words, the skeptic cannot account for his own mind and his thoughts without God, who alone can cause minds that have thoughts. Third, it is the skeptic himself who is applying probability to the universe as an effect of mindless matter in motion over time, not the Christians. It is the skeptic who applies probability to the universe and all it contains by presupposing that it got that way merely through chance. If the universe and all it contains is a result of an Intelligent Designer, we would expect the after-effects of the Designer to be displayed in the world he created. The irreducible complexity and specified complexity we see does not lead us to probability and chance, but to God. It should not surprise us that the skeptic who introduces chance into his equation should find chance as the solution to the equation. The skeptic must have "blind faith" to believe a universe created by chance will be predictable, that is, that the future will be like the past.
There are no moral absolutes. If morals were absolute, there wouldn't be different standards of ethics all over the world. Ethics certainly weren't absolute to the Nazis, who changed their ethics to allow for genocide as a good act.
Dr. Newdow has completely misunderstood what Pastor Knechtle (and all those who discuss ethics) mean by "moral absolutes." "Moral absolutes" means that you believe that morals are universal, abstract, and invariant. In other words, "right and wrong" are not mere individual opinion, social convention, or a biological survival mechanism; they are applicable to all people all of the time, whether people recognize them or obey them. An example is the moral absolute "it is always wrong to murder innocent people." People may disobey this law, or disagree about what it means to murder, what constitutes innocence, and who should be considered persons, but all agree that the principle is true. Moral absolutes are universal "oughts." They are the conscience of all moral agents. Dr. Newdow implied that the Nazi's pursuit of the Holocaust was right because everyone is entitled to his own idea of right and wrong, who are we to judge?, and at least they thought they were right, and intention is all the matters. On this matter Dr. Newdow pontificates his own observation as accurate and absolute, with no evidence. This presupposes his world view. But this illustrates the point! If there is not God, then there is no ultimate basis upon which to declare that what the Nazis did was really wrong. We are left with the conclusion of atheism, which is that there are only preferences - that it may be distasteful for you and me to murder a whole race of people, but for them it was okay. Yet our hearts and our minds tell us this can't be right! That's because woven into the very fabric of what it means to be human is the awareness of certain moral absolutes. But for absolute right and wrong to exist, there must be an absolute source capable of generating morals that are then binding on us. For the same moral standard to apply to all people all of the time everywhere, it must have its justification in something or someone greater than any person or groups of people bound by it. That someone is God.
Life is meaningful and valuable simply because it is. One doesn't need a God to find meaning in life. Life is just life. We're genetically close to mosquitos, but we don't assume that mosquitos must have a "God-shaped hole," without which they view life as meaningless. We are more like mosquitos than we are like God.
Dr. Newdow could have added what some skeptics affirm: True nobility is recognizing that you are nothing special but acting well anyway. That's why atheism is a superior philosophy to religious faith. Atheists are good just for the sake of being good, not because they think they're destined for it or out of fear of hell. In other words, atheists are good for goodness' sake, not to save their own hide.
To this Christians could respond that the skeptic has still "borrowed" from Christian theism to adopt some standard of "good." Why is it noble to act against reality? Wouldn't it be more honest to act as if this life is all there is and we only have the illusion of thought, morality, and duty? Why is it "good" to act "good"? If it is merely the skeptic's opinion, we are free to reject it. If it is the consensus of public opinion, it is only as good as collective agreement can make it. What if everyone agreed that being good meant becoming a Christian. Would the skeptic become a Christian just out of altruism? If it is only convention, then we are free to reject convention for a more liberated, realistic viewpoint. If "good" is self-defining or self-affirming (just a fancy way of saying it "just is,"), then the skeptic seems to be acting in blind faith that good is good and that it is good to be good. But, if Christians say God "just is," they are mocked by the same skeptics who say morality "just is." In fact, one cannot affirm any standard of "good" that is universal, abstract, and invariant without a source of goodness outside of this specific, concrete, and changing universe of molecules in motion. Again, that source is God.
The Bible cannot be trusted any more than any other 2,000 year old diary. Eye witnesses make notoriously untrustworthy evidence. If you can get people to believe they see the face of the Virgin Mary in the side of a tree, you can get them to believe in a resurrection.
Perhaps Dr. Newdow is less than forthright with this wholesale dismissal of eyewitness testimony. He is an attorney and attorneys appear in court. Eyewitness testimony is the bedrock of our judicial system and for Dr. Newdow to expect success in his courtroom forays on behalf of atheists burdened by religion in the public square, he undoubtedly calls witnesses for his cases. The same science that uncovers unreliable eyewitnesses can affirm the testimony of reliable eyewitnesses. The New Testament eyewitnesses would more than pass any reasonable test.
The people in Jesus' day were unsophisticated and dependent on their poor ways of thinking. They lacked a scientific approach and so were unable to explain life without God. Today we are not hampered in that way.
As discussed earlier, non-technological cultures have some advantages that our culture does not when it comes to testing or experiencing the supernatural. Dr. Newdow is committing the common informal fallacy of "chronological snobbery" - anything old is bad; anything new is good. On the contrary, things, events, people, testimony, and evidence are good or bad on their own merits, whether new or old.
I dispute Pastor Knechtle's assertion that the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the testimony to it would stand up in a court of law. In fact, it would never be permitted in court and it is nowhere near a compelling case.
Pastor Knechtle's observation that I should be humble if I want to see God is just a game to get out of the fact that God failed to appear.
Closing Statements - Five minutes each
Pastor Knechtle concluded by noting that there are reliable tests for affirming that the New Testament is valuable eye-witness testimony to the reality of the resurrection. It meets four tests for authenticity:
internal (It makes sense; the books present a consistent message; there are no contradictions);
literary style (it meets the test as an historical account, not a fairy tale or myth);
archaeological evidence overwhelmingly supports the historical accuracy of the New Testament;
manuscript evidence (the numbers of copies and fragments of copies and the time span between the writing and our first complete copies) is overwhelming for the correspondence between the text we possess and what was written originally.
Describing Dr. Newdow as a cynic instead of a skeptic, Pastor Knechtle noted that a skeptic is willing to be convinced while a cynic is unwilling to be convinced, but is little more than parasitically feeding on the body of the evidence. It is easier to be a cynic, he noted, because one can dismiss everything out of hand; it is more difficult but more rewarding to be a skeptic, who evaluates the evidence and follows where it leads.
Finally, Pastor Knechtle concluded by reminding the audience of his five positive arguments for Christian theism:
The universe must have been caused by an uncaused, timeless, powerful Creator;
The universe in all of its complexity must have been created by an Intelligent Designer;
Absolute moral laws - universal, invariant, and abstract - necessitate an ultimate, absolute Moral Lawgiver;
Man's search for meaning and purpose points to the God who created us with these needs, and who alone can fulfill them;
Jesus Christ proved to be God manifest in the flesh by his historical, physical, bodily resurrection from the dead.
Dr. Newdow concluded by making the following assertions:
just because many people believe in God, that does not make him exist;
And, we might add, just because many people disbelieve in God, that doesn't make him imaginary!
there is no scientific data for God's existence;
he would rather live for truth than mythology;
Pastor Knechtle's evidence for God is all in his mind;
internal consistency in the New Testament documents at most proves they colluded to produce a unified story;
beautiful literature can be about anything, even about the non-existence of God, so literature cannot prove God exists;
the existence of archaeological evidence doesn't prove God exists any more than the existence of the Empire State Building proves the existence of King Kong;
Dr. Newdow is confusing two completely different kinds of literature. The pertinent portions of the New Testament are written as historical narratives while King Kong is filmed as a fiction adventure story. One expects historical narratives to record what actually is (or was); one expects adventure stories to spin a good yarn. Again Dr. Newdow is confusing categories, comparing God in history to a gorilla in a movie.
Dr.Newdow doesn't trust his own memory for events of last week, so he will not trust the memory of disciples writing 20-80 years after the fact;
Is Dr. Newdow being candid here? Just a short while before this he trusted his memory of the failure of DES to prevent miscarriages to be accurate and that was describing decades of historical events and information, not merely the last two weeks of Dr. Newdow's life. In fact, as we documented earlier, the memories and writings of the New Testament writers were highly trained and experienced, and were confirmed through multiple sources.
it is much easier for Dr. Newdow to believe a bunch of people got together to make up a story than to see or understand all of the Christian's "mysteries" as proving God;
Genesis is incomprehensible to a scientist looking for evidence of the beginning of the universe;
if the Bible really contained the word of God, it should contain all of the discoveries of science, such as DNA. Instead we find a book that seems limited to the knowledge of pre-scientific people thousands of years ago;
it is possible to feel good about yourself and meaning in life without believing in God;
the God view is to world views what the Dark Ages were to science - hopelessly ignorant and false.
From a technical perspective, Pastor Knechtle won the three main parts of the debate: the Opening Statement, the Rebuttal, and the Closing Statement. He won because he stuck to the debate resolution; he addressed the main points raised by his opponent, and his conclusion summarized all of his main arguments. Dr. Newdow lost all three main parts of the debate because he replaced the resolution with his own, failed to stay on topic, ignored significant arguments raised by his opponent, and his closing statement was not really a coherent statement but more of a "laundry list" of problems he had with Christianity.
Questions from the Audience and Summarized Answers by Dr. Newdow and Pastor Knechtle
Question for Dr. Newdow: "Do you believe in toothaches even though you can't see them, feel, them, or touch them?
Answer from Dr. Newdow: But they are empirically testable with the dentist's X-rays, little mirrors, and drills. Subjective experience and emotions don't prove anything.
Rejoinder from Pastor Knechtle: Toothaches are empirically testable, but some things that we agree are real are not, such as the existence of God. For example, we would all agree that Dr. Newdow has a rational mind, but we cannot empirically verify that mind. We can only see the effects of that mind as they are played out in his physical expressions. In the same way, we can believe in the existence of the invisible God because of his effect in the universe and in our lives.
We would add that reason is not material. We are not talking about brains with electrons, protons, and neutrons, we are talking about the ideas brains think about. When you think about a brown bear, you do not have a piece of matter in your brain that looks like a brown bear. You have a non-tangible idea of a brown bear expressed through the tangible brain. Mind and brain are not the same thing. Perhaps the questioner meant to ask how Dr. Newdow could account for the experience of pain, which is the mind's reaction to the physiological event of stimulated nerve receptors communicated to the brain. That experience of pain is not empirically observable, but can be provoked empirically. If anything this is an indication that the mind is non-material and acts through the brain, which is material.[21]
Question for Pastor Knechtle: Liberal Biblical scholar Bishop Spong notes that the gospel of Mark ends with the empty tomb, not with the resurrection stories. How do you account for this contradiction between Mark and the other gospels?
The questioner is referring to the fact that many of our handwritten manuscript copies of Mark omit verses 9-20 as produced in most of our translations. Some say this means 9-20 was added at a later time and was not original to Mark. Others argue that it is authentic and that its absence is a textual omission rather than its presence being a textual interpolation. Nothing in 9-20 is unique from other statements in the New Testament and nothing in 9-20 contradicts any other New Testament statements.
Answer from Pastor Knechtle: Mark's shorter ending does not contradict the resurrection stories. It affirms the empty tomb but is silent on the resurrection stories. Arguments from silence prove nothing. In fact, Mark does include the empty tomb, and for the empty tomb to be significant, and a cause of the religion about which Mark is writing, Mark must have assumed the resurrection.
Rejoinder from Dr. Newdow: We shouldn't be surprised that made up stories contain contradictions.
On the contrary, made up stories generally avoid all such issues and questions. The fact that there are different perspectives and varying degrees of detail in the various gospel accounts points strongly to their historical validity and trustworthiness.
Question for Dr. Newdow: There are four alternatives to believe about Jesus: that he was a legend, a liar, a lunatic, or Lord. Which do you think he was?
Answer from Dr. Newdow: I don't even know if he existed, much less which role he would fill. I have no scientific evidence that he was a supernatural being.
Rejoinder from Pastor Knechtle: Not all things that are real are testable by the scientific method. Historical evidence is not scientific evidence, but it does tell us what happened in the past. The best historical evidence we have for Jesus Christ is that he was God manifest in the flesh and resurrected bodily from the grave.
Question for Pastor Knechtle: Don't miracles contradict science?
Answer from Pastor Knechtle: If miracles didn't contradict science, in one sense, they wouldn't be miracles at all, but some manifestation of natural law. In another sense, miracles don't contradict science, the observation of processes; but they contradict naturalism, the presupposition that God cannot intervene at any time. Naturalism is a world view or philosophy; science is a procedure. If God exists, then miracles - God's direct action on or to his creation - make sense.
Rejoinder from Dr. Newdow: Science works, prayer doesn't. If it's not random, controlled, double blind, and prospective, it's not science. And miracles pass none of those criteria.
Question for Dr. Newdow: How do you respond to reports of miraculous cures, where the doctors say there is no hope, and someone is healed, and doctors can't explain it?
Answer from Dr. Newdow: Those so-called cures are very uncommon, and the ones that can't be explained away as wish fulfillment, or psychosomatic mental suggestion, etc. are simply statistical abnormalities. Data is great stuff. If you get enough data to bear on the situation, you will find that almost everything leads us to believe in natural law. A few anomalies don't overturn the vast weight of the data.
Rejoinder from Pastor Knechtle: For Dr. Newdow to use his rational mind to evaluate evidence for and against the miraculous, he must believe that his process of reasoning is an accurate path to truth. However, in his naturalistic world view, the non-personal, non-rational process of atoms in motion over time somehow must produce the personal and rational. Dr. Newdow's mind and his ability to reason come from an Intelligent Designer, who alone can account for minds and reason. Christians can apply reason to data because we believe our minds are more than monkey brains.
Question for Pastor Knechtle: What proof do you have that God does exist?
Answer from Pastor Knechtle: God provided empirical (sense-oriented) data to Thomas by appearing before him and inviting him to touch his wounds and see that he was a real, living human being and not a ghost. Although this is evidence, it is not proof in the sense that proof (compelling anyone and everyone to believe) is impossible. Evidence in favor of - indeed, beyond a reasonable doubt - is there in the historical record. We can use the reasonable man test. For example, how do you know for sure that your mother is not fattening you up so she can put arsenic in your tea tonight? You mi |
