Best Pound4Pound Muay Thai/Kickboxer Of All Time (Not In Order))

[Producer1]

I was asked a question, I answered it. The only part that was my opinion was the final comment.

Payak, suggest you come to Phnom Penh and spend a little time in the Kun Khmer scene before you say it's not an issue. It mightn't be in Thailand, it is here.

Spoonking, thanks for stating a direct answer to a question that wasn't asked and supplying no reasoning.

Sophea would never, ever win? I don't know, I guess we'll have to wait for him to get in the ring with JWP to find out. It's also possible that he might spend some time studying a few JWP fights and working on his strategy. But that isn't what I said. What I said was "someone like Sophea".

Anorak, it's only typical nationalist bullshit if it isn't a part of your cultural DNA. You should really study a little of the history before dismissing it so easily. It might be that you decide it's typical nationalist BS after you study local history, or you might concede they may have a point (however small) when you factor in things like the neighbours deciding to occupy a temple standing on soveriegn territory, the neighbours attempting to tell the UN how the same temple standing on soveriegn soil should be managed.

I don't know where you're from, but as a quick example, how would Canada react if the US demanded the UN give them management rights over a historical site situated wholly on Canadian soil and built by Canadians in an identifiable Canadian style?

[cali_chute_boxe]

I can almost feel the resentment in your words Producer1

[Spoonking]

Originally Posted by Producer1

I was asked a question, I answered it. The only part that was my opinion was the final comment.

Payak, suggest you come to Phnom Penh and spend a little time in the Kun Khmer scene before you say it's not an issue. It mightn't be in Thailand, it is here.

Spoonking, thanks for stating a direct answer to a question that wasn't asked and supplying no reasoning.

Sophea would never, ever win? I don't know, I guess we'll have to wait for him to get in the ring with JWP to find out. It's also possible that he might spend some time studying a few JWP fights and working on his strategy. But that isn't what I said. What I said was "someone like Sophea".

Anorak, it's only typical nationalist bullshit if it isn't a part of your cultural DNA. You should really study a little of the history before dismissing it so easily. It might be that you decide it's typical nationalist BS after you study local history, or you might concede they may have a point (however small) when you factor in things like the neighbours deciding to occupy a temple standing on soveriegn territory, the neighbours attempting to tell the UN how the same temple standing on soveriegn soil should be managed.

I don't know where you're from, but as a quick example, how would Canada react if the US demanded the UN give them management rights over a historical site situated wholly on Canadian soil and built by Canadians in an identifiable Canadian style?

What exactly does 'someone like Sophea' mean? I take it to mean someone who is the same size, with a similar style...so my point stands. Sophea is much too small and clearly not at the same level as JWP technically. The two are not in the same ballpark.

Anyway, it is difficult to discuss Khmer vs any foreign fighter with you. No offence, but you tend to get overly sentimental and nationalistic about Khmer guys (I know your not Cambodian). I mean its pretty clear to most people who have seen both guys fight, that Sophea would be decimated at this stage.

[anorak]

Originally Posted by Producer1

Anorak, it's only typical nationalist bullshit if it isn't a part of your cultural DNA. You should really study a little of the history before dismissing it so easily. It might be that you decide it's typical nationalist BS after you study local history, or you might concede they may have a point (however small) when you factor in things like the neighbours deciding to occupy a temple standing on soveriegn territory, the neighbours attempting to tell the UN how the same temple standing on soveriegn soil should be managed.

no sorry I still don't buy that, it isn't part of my cultural dna to see people fighting and killing each other in lots of places worldwide but I still see it as sad bullshit . It could be said being from U.K that the whole troubles in Northern Ireland in the past are part of my cultural dna and I will call them the same sad and pathetic, you had people rioting recently for the right to make a parade to celebrate some battle hundreds of years ago which basically just incites more hatred! People dying over the world over religion and all the other disputes. Not quite as extreme between Thailand and Cambodia, but doesn't take much to set off as was seen a few years back now when they sacked the Thai embassy in Bangkok all because of some sad Cambodian politician stirring up nationalistic hatred in the hunt for votes.

You don't know what history I may or may not have studied so cant really say im dismissing anything easily.

[Producer1]

We're getting pretty far from "best p4p MT/Kickboxer"...

Cali, I'm sure you can. I love my country of residence almost as much as I love my country of birth and when I look at it's relations with its neighbour for the last century all I see is a hundred years of invasion, occupation, armed confrontation, support for the Khmer Rouge and now armed confrontation and occupation again. It only makes it worse that for all that time Cambodia was a small backwater and Thailand a developing nation and then an Asian Tiger. Just makes Thailand look like the school bully who can only pick on the weak. But I was quoting local opinion, not mine. You should hear me actually talk in person...

Spoonking, I meant weight class and record. The OP started by quoting records. Well here's Sophea's official record: 95 victories, 2 draws, 3 losses, 26 KOs (unofficialy it's more like 250 victories and 5 defeats). I agree, Sophea's style looks bloody awful, but he keeps winning fights and not against cans, either. He's beaten both the Khmer world champions when he was in their weight class. The guy is incredibly tough and he schooled Zidov around the ring the first two rounds. I don't believe he is too small. He weighed in at 70 kilos straight last week and Viva had 10cm on Sophea when he lost to him. So, even if Sophea can't then someone with a similar record who moves between 69-72 kg would be the boxer who (we hope) could beat JWP, or a JWP (like, say, the Preacher). Maybe the someone like Sophea might be someone like Bunthen, if he doesn't throw himself out of the ring...

anorak, the cultural DNA I'm talking about would be the kickboxing. It isn't a sport to the Khmers, it's culture, like the Bolshoi is culture to Russians and Shakespeare is culture to you and me. So from their point of view the Thais have stolen their culture and refused to acknowledge the origins and have lied to the rest of the world about it.

[Gunslingermma]

I really like samart, saekson, hoost, dekkers, coban. Man I could keep typing names all day it drives me nuts that Muay Thai doesnt get that much respect here.

[Spoonking]

Originally Posted by Producer1

Spoonking, I meant weight class and record. The OP started by quoting records. Well here's Sophea's official record: 95 victories, 2 draws, 3 losses, 26 KOs (unofficialy it's more like 250 victories and 5 defeats). I agree, Sophea's style looks bloody awful, but he keeps winning fights and not against cans, either. He's beaten both the Khmer world champions when he was in their weight class. The guy is incredibly tough and he schooled Zidov around the ring the first two rounds. I don't believe he is too small. He weighed in at 70 kilos straight last week and Viva had 10cm on Sophea when he lost to him. So, even if Sophea can't then someone with a similar record who moves between 69-72 kg would be the boxer who (we hope) could beat JWP, or a JWP (like, say, the Preacher). Maybe the someone like Sophea might be someone like Bunthen, if he doesn't throw himself out of the ring...

anorak, the cultural DNA I'm talking about would be the kickboxing. It isn't a sport to the Khmers, it's culture, like the Bolshoi is culture to Russians and Shakespeare is culture to you and me. So from their point of view the Thais have stolen their culture and refused to acknowledge the origins and have lied to the rest of the world about it.

A win over both Khmer "world champions" and Zidov, isn't a world class c.v. to be honest. The fact that your throwing around record stats means diddly as well. You know fully well, it's who you beat, not how many you've beaten.

and If i can throw in my two cents regarding this Thai/Khmer business...its a copout saying that its only about kickboxing...I think its clear that the whole dispute is rooted in something a lot deeper than kickboxing or culture/arts

[Payak]

we don't lie about the history of muay thai, the history as you put it is an unproven theory,one of several theories.
producer 1 like many people thailands reputation as great fighters seems to have angered you,because we are so respected on the world scene.
we respect fighters regardless of there nationality.
i dont need to go to your country,where i am from it's not spoken about as nobody cares,its a complete non issue.
give credit where credit is due.
and to say that Apidej sit hrun,who is my former trainer did nothing amazing shows what kind of mindset your in when your defending a country that your not even a citizen of.
Apidej held 7 titles at the same time,only lost 10 times in over 400 fights.
is regarded as the most powerful kicker in history.
and thats not amazing to you because he's thai, if he was from your country you would be singing his praises from the rooftops.
we have earned the respect of all the nations,we dont demand respect by preaching unproven history lessons.

[Producer1]

We are way off-topic here.

Spoonking, yes, it might be who you've beaten, but in that case Sophea has beaten Chantha, Viva and Kosal in recent times. If you're going to say that about the Khmers then you have to say it about the Thais in the OP as well. I threw stats around because they were thrown around by the Thread Starter in the OP as proof of how good fighters were and why they were deserving of the title "best p4p Muay Thai boxer".

And as for cop outs: I was only talking about why we can't put Thais in the ring in Phnom Penh to settle once and for all "who's better". I was asked a question and I gave the answer and that has only to do with kickboxing.

Payak: You might not talk about it with your friends in your country. Like I said, come here and you'll find that the Khmers do talk about it. The point isn't about whether it's an issue in your country, the point is that it's an issue in this country and it's led us to where we can't put Thais in the ring. I don't care whether Thais talk about it or not, I don't live in Thailand and I don't work in Thailand producing and promoting kickboxing shows. I do that in Cambodia and it's an issue in Cambodia.

And when you're going to call me out for saying someone is or isn't anything special, make sure you fully understand what I've written before you attack me for it.

I'm glad that your former trainer was a champion many times over, that means you obviously got good training.

I never said he wasn't special. I said breaking an arm one time didn't make him special in comparison with other kickboxers. I said Eh Phouthang has done it more than once. I said that the fact that Apidej did it ONE TIME didn't make him the greatest p4p nak muay of all time. I also said it doesn't make him the greatest p4p kickboxer of all time.

Being Thai has fuck-all to do with it. Doing it only once (which is what the OP said "he once broke an opponent's arm with a kick") makes it not so amazing it's worthy of extra special attention when other, virtually unknown, kickboxers have done it more than once.

I also said that other things may make him special. At no point did I say he did nothing amazing.

So, go look into your own mindset before you start investigating mine. You clearly didn't understand what I wrote. You have clearly misunderstood what I wrote more than once.

As for preaching unproven history lessons, well, you've made your point about "theories", I guess I did, too, when I put a timeline in.

[hyatt]

Carnage broke a guys arm with an elbow. Can he make the list?

Producer1, the border issue is important. My wife is from nearby (on the Thai side) and we watched the jets flying overhead. My father-in-law speaks Khmen as his first language, and in that part of the country Thai is a concept rather than a reality. I have to say, though, that the TS made the list of Muay Thai fighters. Of course there is no Cambodian on the list, cos they don't fight Muay Thai. Would a Kung Fu dude make a 'Greatest Karate fighter' list?