[ShadowWolf]

Originally Posted by robirt

Serra is supposed to be this BJJ god, because he runs a BJJ school and was a BJJ champion back in like 99 or whatever in a couple of different tournaments and he may be but all his fights in the last 5 or so years have gone to a decision whether he won or lost.

I really think he is too small to compete in today's UFC at 170 with his strengths being submissions. He's 5'6" and he's going to try and sub today's 170 pounder's like GSP who's 5'10" or Matt Hughes at 5'9" or Diego, and it's not so much how tall they are i'm just talking about their general frame size and how much they cut to hit 170 whereas Serra probably walks around at 170. I just don't see how he can really compete strength wise and expect to win.

If he had a whole different game plan like maybe he is an excellent striker or an all star wrestler who can GNP his way to victory he might have a chance in that division, but he's not going to be big and strong enough to take down today's 170 lb fighters and sub them without spending a whole lot more energy than his opponents are spending and most of them could probably power out of whatever he's got anyway.

Just my 2 cents. Serra doesn't belong in 170, he needs to go back to 155.

When it comes to grappling or JJ size isn't really a factor. Serra won't have a problem subbing people based on size or strength it's more of a combination of size/strength/skill that is the issue. GSP for example is naturally way bigger than Serra but he is also great on the ground and knows how to flow and move on the ground. Matt is an outstanding wrestler with tons of power. When it comes to grappling mostly anyone can sub anyone regardless of size and I train and seen it. MMA is a different story though so you may have a point based on MMA.

[robirt]

Originally Posted by cntrlf8

How can you guys say GSP is too small to submit people in his own weight class when Royce Gracie proved that BJJ is fundamentally designed to overcome huge size and strength differences? BJJ works by moving body parts in directions the muscles are not capable of countering effectively. A fully extended arm doesn't have the power required to bend to prevent an armbar submission, the bicep just isn't designed that way. Same principle goes with any submission. They're almost ALL about using leverage to overcome raw power.

Think about the Crocodile Hunter as an example... you think he'd be nearly as brave about wrestling a 10 foot Croc if he didn't KNOW that their jaw muscles don't have the strength to open if he holds their mouth closed? It's the same principle..

Please read above post about Royce Gracie, and the argument isn't so much that he can't hold someone in an armbar and win, the argument is that he can not get the larger 170 lbers to that point. Serra is not going to be able to mount/side mount/ probably not even hold them in guard for long with his size IMO, and if he can't maneuver these guys how is he going to set up the submission. Since that is his only touted offense I just don't see how he can succeed at 170

[wamrage]

Originally Posted by Andre_the_Great

Sakuraba, Kazushi.

End of thread.

[robirt]

Originally Posted by wamrage

End of thread.

I don't get it, Sakuraba fights at what 190? I don't see him coming in so much smaller than his opponents and winning by subs... Crocop, Silva, Nog, Arona all beat him his only submission win I can think of against a really big guy was against Randelman... anyone care to enlighten me?

edit: so i just checked fight finder, and he's got a lot of sub's I have't seen like all the 96-01 stuff. I don't really remember Sakuraba being considered small for his weight class though like I consider Serra small for 170.

[Taurosnake]

I am not sure the threadstarter understands Jiu Jitsu entirely. Longer limbs are easier to get a hold off and lock up. Yes, 170 is a bad weight for Serra, but when on the ground, size is greatly nullified for a JiuJitsu master. Regardless, it is extremely improbable that St. Pierre will be submitted by Serra, and highly likely that St. Pierre will TKO Serra in the first or the second round.

[wamrage]

Originally Posted by robirt

I don't get it, Sakuraba fights at what 190? I don't see him coming in so much smaller than his opponents and winning by subs... Crocop, Silva, Nog, Arona all beat him his only submission win I can think of against a really big guy was against Randelman... anyone care to enlighten me?

I can think of 6 or 7 guys off the top of my head that he subbed who were bigger/stronger....another that immediately comes to mind is rampage. Plus he managed to get some decision wins against bigger stronger guys who he couldn't sub, i.e. vitor.

Fightfinder is your friend.

[cntrlf8]

Originally Posted by robirt

Please read above post about Royce Gracie, and the argument isn't so much that he can't hold someone in an armbar and win, the argument is that he can not get the larger 170 lbers to that point. Serra is not going to be able to mount/side mount/ probably not even hold them in guard for long with his size IMO, and if he can't maneuver these guys how is he going to set up the submission. Since that is his only touted offense I just don't see how he can succeed at 170

Have you ever actually PRACTICED BJJ? One of the fundamentals that I was taught (by one of Carlson Gracie's head instructors) was redirection... Make them think you're working toward something, then throw something on them they weren't expecting. That's a principle of MMA as well... Distract them with one thing (i.e. strikes), then finish with another (submission).

[robirt]

Originally Posted by wamrage

I can think of 6 or 7 guys off the top of my head that he subbed who were bigger/stronger....another that immediately comes to mind is rampage. Plus he managed to get some decision wins against bigger stronger guys who he couldn't sub, i.e. vitor.

Fightfinder is your friend.

so i just checked fight finder, and he's got a lot of sub's I have't seen like all the 96-01 stuff. I don't really remember Sakuraba being considered small for his weight class though like I consider Serra small for 170.

Originally Posted by Taurosnake

I am not sure the threadstarter understands Jiu Jitsu entirely. Longer limbs are easier to get a hold off and lock up. Yes, 170 is a bad weight for Serra, but when on the ground, size is greatly nullified for a JiuJitsu master. Regardless, it is extremely improbable that St. Pierre will be submitted by Serra, and highly likely that St. Pierre will TKO Serra in the first or the second round.

I've got a decent grasp on BJJ and how leverage works, but the real argument here is not whether Serra is strong enough to make a big 170 tap like GSP if that fighter laid down and gave Serra his arm the argument is that Serra is not big enough to put the large 170 lb guys into a position like that. He can't physically maneuver them

[robirt]

Originally Posted by cntrlf8

Have you ever actually PRACTICED BJJ? One of the fundamentals that I was taught (by one of Carlson Gracie's head instructors) was redirection... Make them think you're working toward something, then throw something on them they weren't expecting. That's a principle of MMA as well... Distract them with one thing (i.e. strikes), then finish with another (submission).

Well Serra better start packing smoke bombs and firecrackers in his pant's cause that's the kind of distraction he's going to need to win.

[Teknical Itch]

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