I'm curious to see what BJ Penn fans can say about this, if they can stick around long enough to read the whole thing. It's long. Also, before anyone says anything, I currently believe that Penn is the best lightweight around, but as this article really points out, he has only recently earned that title.
MMA Ranking Talk Blog Archive BJ Penn MMA Career BTN - Followup
There's a lot of rambling in here, but I think it's a good read anyhow.
"Let’s finish up this section by looking at BJ Penn’s MMA Career at the time.
2006-09-23 - BJ Penn lost to Matt Hughes. This was his second loss in a row and his third loss in three fights. At this point in time (keep repeating that to yourself) BJ Penn hadn’t fought at lightweight since…2003-10-10. That’s right, almost 3 years without a single fight at lightweight. Despite this, some people still had him ranked #1 at lightweight. Even more impressive is that some still had BJ ranked *AT THE TIME* in the top 3 or 4 p4p (only the haters had him that low, clearly BJ was still #1) despite having lost three of his last four fights (more on that later).
2007-06-23 - BJ Penn now beats…Jens Pulver (<3 little Evil). Of course BJ Penn is now #1 at lightweight. I mean, 1 lightweight fight in over three years, and he took out a top...uhhhh (<3 little evil but...) a top...20? 15? Honestly what can I say, before the fight Jens even said he was dropping to 145. He also had just lost to a UFC newcomer who then went on the TUF show.
2009-03-18 - The day of the original rant. Since 2007-06-23 BJ had two solid wins at lightweight, and then went right back up to WW and lost to GSP...again. (because of the greasing, and the cage, and the lights, and the camera, and the weight, and the greasing and the cage andgreasingandtrainingandhistoeandsomeon estolehishatandthegreasing). It was after this fight against GSP "to the death" (stopped after the 4th round) that the rant was originally typed.
At that time BJ Penn had four wins at lightweight in the last *FIVE* years. During that time they also had *FOUR* losses at higher weight classes. They also only had a total of 11 fights, which is less than 75% of what you'd expect.
Yet somehow, *AT THAT TIME* people were still claiming BJ Penn #1 at lightweight and top 4 (or better) p4p.
I mean really, at each of those points in time and any other point inbetween that I didn't focus on was BJ Penn still #1 at lightweight and top four p4p? REALLY!?!?!?! Not a single point in time in the last five plus years where people can concede that maybe he slipped just a bit? Please just tell me at what point he cemented his status and why nothing he does can change it. People wait for Fedor to fall, some knocked GSP down for the Serra loss, some still look back at Anderson's earlier losses. Why is it that *NOTHING* changes BJ Penn's ranking. He can lose and it doesn't matter, he can go inactive and it doesn't matter.
2) BJ Penn’s MMA Career and Weight
Another hotly contested point about BJ Penn is his p4p status and how weight factors into things. As with the above and the original rant, I really just want to talk as factually as possible.
2a) BJ Penn’s weight
One of the big slashes in the pro-BJ Column is that he has fought bigger people. This is true and I’d expect even haters to admit such a thing. Where things get a bit blurry is just how that stacks up against other people.
Anderson Silva
Anderson has fought multiple times at light heavyweight now. Although many don’t rank Irvin overly high there are some that have Griffin in the top 5 range. Either way, Anderson has far more wins at his weight class, and a higher activity level.
GSP
One of the knocks I see on people against GSP is that he stays at welterweight. Although true, it’s not like everyone is the same size in that weightclass. GSP has mulitple wins against people that later held belts at middleweight. Where they stood at the time of the fight is unknown.
If we had more accurate information (that I keep begging for) we could also look at fighters within the division currently. Although I’ve heard reports of GSP at 190, I’ve also heard those dismissed and people say it’s closer to 180-185. Contrast that against fighters like Rumble and Thiago Alves. Both fighters have missed weight before. Both have been talked about in the 200+ range. Recently I saw something claiming Rumble was around 205 in the Koscheck fight.
Since we don’t have accurate information I’m not going to get into this too much, but I again plead for people to stop using “weight” and “weight class” interchangeably. If BJ Penn is 155 on the nose and GSP was 180 for their fight(s) that’s a 25lb gap. If GSP is 180 and Rumble is 205…that’s a 25lb gap!
Fedor
A situation where we do have some (slightly) more accurate numbers is Fedor. He usually weighs around 230-235. His fight against Rogers he weighed in at 232 (I believe). For this fight Rogers weighed in at 264 (I believe). The numbers might be slightly off, but I’m pretty sure the difference in weight was ~32lbs.
That’s a 32lb weight difference without Fedor cutting anything and possibly with Rogers cutting to make the 265lb limit. Again, don’t talk about “weight class” as though it’s the same as “weight”.
BJ has fought bigger guys, and it’s totally understandable to give him credit for that. However, if you give BJ credit for fighting bigger guys, then you can’t ignore other fighters that do the same. More accurate information would make this easier to see. Even without it though it’s clear that other fighters do fight “bigger” guys sometimes and that even within a “weight class” fighters have different “weights”.
2b) BJ Penn’s wins at higher weights
The theme of “talking fact, not smack” continues here. I have an incredible level of respect for BJ and all of the opponents I mention. Having said that, I think it’s important that we take a look at BJ Penn’s successes at higher weight classes.
Let’s start with a little exercise, grab a piece of paper (or open notepad or whatever) and write/type the name of the “best”(hardest) fight BJ Penn had at a higher weight. I’ll play along and although your list might be slightly different, just keep going. At first I’ll go with….
-GSP (the second time)
Ok, now add another name (or the same from a different fight) I’ll add Matt Hughes and my list looks like…
- GSP (the second time)
- Matt Hughes (second time)
Yours can look however, it might have GSP X2 or Hughes X2 or even Machida…just keep going a few more…
My list:
-GSP
-Hughes
-GSP
Ok lets go for “top 5″ because that’s a number most people like.
- GSP
- Hughes
- GSP
- Machida
- Hughes
Ok, there are my five…now draw a line (or put a hyphen) and list the fight outcome. Mine looks like:
Fighter Outcome
GSP Loss
Hughes Loss
GSP Loss
Machida Loss
Hughes Win
Now, as I said, your list may look different. Maybe you’ve got Machida higher, or the two GSP losses grouped up, or maybe the Hughes win and the Hughes loss at the top. Any of those I think will match what most people have.
Did anyone put Renzo Gracie? If so, please read 5.0.2 of the original rant, understand:
- Renzo hadn’t fought in almost 2 years leading up to the BJ Penn fight
- Renzo hadn’t *WON* in over 3 and a half years before the BJ Penn fight
- Renzo had lost 2 in a row going into the BJ Penn fight
- Renzo had lost 5 of his last 6 going into the BJ Penn fight
Given that, please explain how Renzo was a higher end “fight” for BJ than any of the five above that most people have.
Maybe Rodrigo Gracie? They were 5-0 at the time and had beat Mach recently. Do you swap out Machida for that? Maybe a Hughes fight?
Here is what it comes down to, BJ Penn has some fights at higher weights and he has some wins at higher weights, the problem is most people confuse the two of them. Here is the list people quote of who BJ Penn has *FOUGHT* at higher weights:
“OMFGZORZ HE FOUGHT - Hughes X 2, GSP X 2, and Machida!!!”
Ok, that is actually true. Now lets look at a list of who he *BEAT* at higher weight:
Hughes (once out of two!), Rodrigo Gracie, Renzo Gracie.
Maybe some throw Bang in there as well, go for it if you want.
Does anyone spot the differences in the two lists!? Honestly question *RIGHT NOW*, I want everyone to take a second and think on this and then we’ll all blurt out our answers together here goes…
“After Matt Hughes, who is the second biggest win for BJ Penn outside of lightweight”
get ready…
3…
2…
1…
ANSWER…
Ok, what did you say? I went with Rodrigo, but I might be wrong.
Seriously, does this basic exercise on the paper help at all? BJ Penn has had 5(ish) BIG fights at higher weights. He’s fought Hughes X2, he’s fought GSPX2, and he’s fought a young Machida (had 5 fights at the time, but had already beaten Rich Franklin). Of those five “big” fights he’s won…One of them.
It seems I’m again forced to ask why it’s so hard for some to understand how others might question BJ Penn just a bit, just a little, just the teeeennnnnsssiiiiest bit. These people that question him concede he’s fought at higher weights, they just follow up by pointing out which of those fights he actually won..."
Too many characters for me to quote the entire thing. Check it out anyways.
