Official Sherdog P4P Discussion (threads merged)

[jiujitsu13]

Originally Posted by blander

fedor is not #1

he may be someday but not at this point

just because you want it doesn't make it so

sherdog has ranked correct

fedor is #1 google fedor watch his fights, look at his record

[CRAWFISH]

Originally Posted by robbyp

No, I could use a hypothetical fight in which Fedor, GSP, and Silva are the same weight. That's what P4P is supposed to be, a ranking to determine who is the best fighter regardless of weight class.

And if I was going to use your criterion, then once again Fedor would be #1.

And no, the hypothetical argument doesn't work at all when ranking in the same weight class. It is also completely subjective. Just because you think BJ Penn would rape Aoki doesn't mean everybody else feels the same. I think Kid Yamamoto would destroy Mike Brown; should I rank him #1 FW? I think Maia and Jacare would dominate Silva; should I rank them #1 at MW? You are the one not making any sense.

There is a Dana interview where he says that Kid willprobably fight in the WEC at 135lbs.

[Striker22 redo]

I agree with Sherdog. Fedor has never been dropped from the #1 ranking in the HWs even after a 3 year span of fighting subpar/out of weight class fighters. It was a true 3 years between Crocop and Tim Sylvia (who some dont believe is a worthy opponent either). Over the last 4 years Fedor has only fought 6 times. Thats less than twice a year. I dont care how great he is, and he is great, but thats just not working hard enough. May not be his fault, but its truth

[Striker22 redo]

Originally Posted by Roundhouse23

I've been following alot of rankings on US websites, and I think I've worked out their criteria... it goes like this:

1. If you fight in the UFC, you get bumped up 2 spots

2. If you're American you get bumped up 1 spot

3. If you're American and you have a great looking record (even if you've beaten nobodies) you get bumped up 1 spot

4. If you're not American and dont fight in the UFC (no matter who you beat) you go down 2 spots

Um, neither GSP, Anderson or Fedor is American and thats the top 3, so I drop you 3 spots for bad posts.

[ralphus1]

Unbelievable.

[Pokeystotle]

Originally Posted by robbyp

There is an enormous Sherdog hypocrisy within its rankings. Sherdog claims that the only reason Fedor isn't ranked #1 pound for pound is because of his recent activity.(A fallacy) Then despite saying this, they go ahead and rank BJ Penn #1 at LW.

Really? Which one? There were 52 different kinds of fallacies last time I checked, which fallacy is this? You are comparing a regular ranking with a pound for pound ranking. There are a lot of things to consider there, especially the fact that the pound for pound rankings are not as clear because they avoid the weight factor. At LW B.J. has only had three fights recently but has looked somewhat unstoppable.

I don't see your fallacy that you suggest you detected. However I do see one in what you said, and it call a non sequitur, meaning "it does not follow". Your logic from your major premise to your conclusion does not follow. Where the error is is in saying that Sherdog claims that Fedor isn't ranked higher because of recent activity, therefore it doesn't make sense why B.J. Penn is ranked (on a different kind of list mind you) at number 1. Where is the hypocrisy here?

Now, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that this doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Over the last 3 years(the timeframe Sherdog and Fedor detractors like to use when discussing Fedor's place on the P4P list), BJ Penn has defeated 1 ranked opponent, one less than Fedor. BJ Penn's #1 ranking is still based simply off his victory over Takanori Gomi from 2003. Now using these 3 years as a template, Shinya Aoki has reeled off wins over Hansen, Uno, JZ and Alvarez, all of which were top 10 opponents(according to Sherdog) when Aoki beat them.

A rocket scientist? Most of them can't even pick out a decent pair of pants to wear to work!

Let's examine B.J. Penn's record, and who he has beat in the last three years. 2 losses to GSP, and 1 to Hughes, while beating Pulver, Stevenson, and Sherk. Not very impressive outside of the win over Sean Sherk really.

And it doesn't matter at all that BJ was once a champion at 170 because only his fights at 155 have any bearing on his LW ranking. BJ Penn only has THREE lightweight fights in the last FIVE years for goodness sakes. Sherdog also can't use a hypothetical "oh well, BJ would destroy Aoki" as an excuse for this hypocrisy because I could do the exact same thing with Fedor in the P4P discussion. Furthermore, according to Sherdog's own criteria, rankings aren't supposed to be based on hypotheticals or "what ifs."

Is that true? I mean, if a fighter is fighting up, and out of their weight class, doesn't this effect their ranking somewhere? Is it only in the weight class that they are competing at? I don't think Aoki would do very well in the U.S. though, especially without the added grip he'd lose with those pants of his combined with his style....ah, another time. Anyway, you do have a point I think, and a good one, but I'm not sure there is any hypocrisy here, or fallacies.

At the very least Sherdog should be consist with its rankings. If BJ Penn is ranked #1 at LW, Fedor absolutely should be ranked #1 P4P. Using Sherdog's own criteria for ranking righters, if Anderson Silva and GSP are going to be ranked over Fedor, then Aoki should be ranked #1 at LW.

Again pound for pound rankings are in effect hypothetical to begin with. They are based on "what if" as you say anyway. In that kind of ranking, a different species than normal ranking to be sure, we assume that all fighters are the same weight, which they aren't(which is hypothetical). So "what if" Fedor was a 170 pounds and fought Georges St. Pierre at 170 pounds, who would win? Not only is the pound for pound ranking hypothetical, but based on fights, for the most part, that are unlikely to happen. B.J. Penn is never going to fight Rampage. Fedor is never going to fight GSP.

So really you don't have much of an argument because normal rankings are based on actual matches, and fights, not possible ones based on hypothetical conditions as is the case with the pound for pound argument.

And no, I am not saying Aoki should be ranked #1 at LW. I am simply calling Sherdog out on its hypocrisy. I think BJ Penn should be #1 at LW just as I think Fedor should be #1 P4P.

If you believe that Fedor should be #1 pound for pound because B.J. should be the #1 LW, I don't follow your logic there. That is in fact a non sequitur, and it doesn't make any sense.

[jehosephat]

Infallable logic (sp?) In the subjective world of P4P rankings, TS comes through with objective reasoning. Fedor is #1 P4P.

[Pokeystotle]

Originally Posted by Roundhouse23

I've been following alot of rankings on US websites, and I think I've worked out their criteria... it goes like this:

1. If you fight in the UFC, you get bumped up 2 spots

2. If you're American you get bumped up 1 spot

3. If you're American and you have a great looking record (even if you've beaten nobodies) you get bumped up 1 spot

4. If you're not American and dont fight in the UFC (no matter who you beat) you go down 2 spots

Are you really stupid? Come on asshole, stop making contentious bullshit posts, and stop wasting everyones time!

[Pokeystotle]

Originally Posted by jehosephat

Infallable logic (sp?) In the subjective world of P4P rankings, TS comes through with objective reasoning. Fedor is #1 P4P.

Actually no, I took care of that, read above.

[JJHouse]

Anyone with half a brain knows Fedor is #1