[sasasa]

Originally Posted by Newb

Im sick of hearinh how winning the OWGP makes him fighter of the year. Look at his opponents.

Minowa (Total freakshow fight)
Yoshida (Not freakshow, but really no challenge either)
Wanderlei (Full props for that win)
Barnett (Whom he's already beaten twice, and Mirko breezed through Wandy in about 2 minutes while Barnett fought a war with Nog.)


Compare that to Barnetts year:

Aleks E (Top 10 HW)
Hunt (Top 10 HW, albeit an extremely overrated one)
Big Nog (number 2 heavy in the world)

And thats not even counting wins over Nak and Pastula, which arent exactly amazing, but it just shows what a busy year hes had. And two of the fighters he beat were fighters Mirko couldnt get past.


Josh Barnett=Fighter of the year.

You contradict yourself several times in this post.

1) You completely downplay Cro Cop's win over Yoshida while giving praise to Barnett for beating Hunt. You are right Hunt is an overrated top 10 HW, he is only there because he beat Cro Cop because Hunt was a bad matchup for Cro Cop, however he was a not a bad matchup for Barnett. Hunt has poor takedown defense and even poorer submission defense, which play right into Barnett's strengths. Yoshida on the other hand is a fighter who has all of his victories by way of submission, something that plays into Cro Cop's weakness (if he has one). Cro Cop has beaten submission fighters before but none with the takedowns of Yoshida (olympic gold medalist in judo). So while rankings wise (which is completely subjective anyways) Barnett had a more "difficult" 2nd round opponent, style wise Cro Cop had a tougher one. And if Yoshida is no challenge to Cro Cop than certainly Hunt was no challenge to Barnett.

2) It is not Cro Cop's fault that Barnett had a difficult time with Nogueira. It is not like Cro Cop had a soft semi final bracket, he was facing the MW champion and he beat him worse than anyone ever has before. If the brackets were reversed its not that hard to imagine Cro Cop having an easier time with Nog (he was after all breezing through him the first time they fought before the armbar, but since then he has trained in submission defense for 3 years with Werdum so I doubt it would happen again) and Barnett would have a tougher time with Silva. Cro Cop had no impact on Barnett's fight with Nogueira so why are you punishing him for it? If Barnett had beat Nog quicker (I know its a difficult thing to ask) or at the very least spent less energy and sustained less damage winning a decision then I guess the final's would have been closer, but again that was up to Barnett, not Cro Cop, which brings me to my third point.

3) "Barnett (Whom he's already beaten twice..." did you actually just write this? You are trying to make a case for Barnett to win fighter of the year and you are downplaying Cro Cop's victory over him because he has already beaten him twice? What does that tell you about who is a better fighter? This also contradicts what you wrote right after "and Mirko breezed through Wandy in about 2 minutes while Barnett fought a war with Nog.)" Since you are admitting that Cro Cop has already beaten Barnett twice, why do you think that Barnett being fatigued had any impact on the outcome of the finals? Yes maybe Barnett could have made it out of the first round, but judging by past fights it is hard to imagine Barnett actually beating Cro Cop.

[Newb]

Originally Posted by Yep.

Well stated. Cro Cop got the job done, Barnett didn't. People were expecting Wandy to win the whole thing before it even started, and CC gave him a beating. Part of winning a tournament is not only to survive but to finish your opponents swiftly, something that Cro Cop was successful at and Barnett wasn't.

We can continue to make wonders of "could have, would have, should have," but things happened the way they happened. Cro Cop won the OWGP, something Barnett couldn't do.

He got the job done, but honestly who had the easiest road to victory in the OWGP? Id say Mirko by far. 3 of his 4 opponents werent even in his weight class. The one HW he beat he'd already beaten twice before. Personally, my problem with GP's is it always seems one guy has a war, then fights a guy that didnt have such a hard fight. So the state Barnett and Crocop came into their bout is of huge relevance to me.

So, technically, Crocop is 1-0 this year in his weight class. And BS decision or no (it was anybodys game come decision time though, I admit), Barnett beat Nog. "could have, would have, should have," but things happened the way they happened.

I think people are overrating the OWGP belt. Competition matters to me more than who wins a belt.

And wow....people picked Wandy? I could see people thinking he could get past Crocop (at least at the time), get a big punch in or something. But people really felt he could get past Barnett or Nog? Blasphemous.

[VikingRage]

Barnett is already Fighter of the Year in my opinion.

Barnett has had what.. 5 fights already this year? Now he is going on 6? Thats nuts. Barnett took out TWO people that took out CC and one that lost to CC, good thing CC did not get put up against them eh.

Im not saying Barnett is better then CroCop, but Barnetts year was a lot more impressive then CroCops and Barnett fought harder opponents overall.

[Yep.]

Originally Posted by Newb

He got the job done, but honestly who had the easiest road to victory in the OWGP? Id say Mirko by far. 3 of his 4 opponents werent even in his weight class. The one HW he beat he'd already beaten twice before. Personally, my problem with GP's is it always seems one guy has a war, then fights a guy that didnt have such a hard fight. So the state Barnett and Crocop came into their bout is of huge relevance to me.

So, technically, Crocop is 1-0 this year in his weight class. And BS decision or no (it was anybodys game come decision time though, I admit), Barnett beat Nog. "could have, would have, should have," but things happened the way they happened.

I think people are overrating the OWGP belt. Competition matters to me more than who wins a belt.

And wow....people picked Wandy? I could see people thinking he could get past Crocop (at least at the time), get a big punch in or something. But people really felt he could get past Barnett or Nog? Blasphemous.

In case you didn't remember the Sherdog poll before the OWGP happened, 30% of Sherdog posters thought that Wandy was going to win it, a higher percentage than any of the other three fighters.

And I think you need to respond to the poster above you rather than me, he made his points much more clearly than I did.

[WaR6986]

Originally Posted by Yep.

Well stated. Cro Cop got the job done, Barnett didn't. People were expecting Wandy to win the whole thing before it even started, and CC gave him a beating. Part of winning a tournament is not only to survive but to finish your opponents swiftly, something that Cro Cop was successful at and Barnett wasn't.

We can continue to make wonders of "could have, would have, should have," but things happened the way they happened. Cro Cop won the OWGP, something Barnett couldn't do.

Barnett almost subbed Nog, took Nog to decision, and won... remember Nog? the guy Crocop LOST TO? if you think wand is on the same level as nog you're a fucking moron. Congrats to Crocop for 'getting the job done' but his job wasn't half as hard as Barnett's.

Crocop had ONE TOP 10 WIN over a guy who had just went to war with the former #2 HW
Barnett had THREE TOP 10 WINS including two guys that BEAT CROCOP

[Yep.]

Originally Posted by WaR6986

Barnett almost subbed Nog, took Nog to decision, and won... remember Nog? the guy Crocop LOST TO? if you think wand is on the same level as nog you're a fucking moron. Congrats to Crocop for 'getting the job done' but his job wasn't half as hard as Barnett's.

Crocop had ONE TOP 10 WIN over a guy who had just went to war with the former #2 HW
Barnett had THREE TOP 10 WINS including two guys that BEAT CROCOP

Cro Cops loss to Nog was three fucking years ago, and stylistically Mark Hunt is a much much easier match up for Barnett than for Cro Cop. Your shit is irrelevant.

[Newb]

Originally Posted by sasasa

You contradict yourself several times in this post.

1) You completely downplay Cro Cop's win over Yoshida while giving praise to Barnett for beating Hunt. You are right Hunt is an overrated top 10 HW, he is only there because he beat Cro Cop because Hunt was a bad matchup for Cro Cop, however he was a not a bad matchup for Barnett. Hunt has poor takedown defense and even poorer submission defense, which play right into Barnett's strengths. Yoshida on the other hand is a fighter who has all of his victories by way of submission, something that plays into Cro Cop's weakness (if he has one). Cro Cop has beaten submission fighters before but none with the takedowns of Yoshida (olympic gold medalist in judo). So while rankings wise (which is completely subjective anyways) Barnett had a more "difficult" 2nd round opponent, style wise Cro Cop had a tougher one. And if Yoshida is no challenge to Cro Cop than certainly Hunt was no challenge to Barnett..

Well, to be honest everyone was talking about how much Hunt had trained and improved his ground game before this fight, and it was quite the consensus on the board that after Aleks was "tooling" Barnett, there would be no way he could get past Hunts "Elite K-1" striking. Hindsight is 20/20.

I dunno how Yoshida is a hard style for Crocop, though. Yeah, he wins by submission, but look at who he's submitted (Hunt, Frye, Tank Abbot, Satake, Timura, Nishijima and Ogawa). Of those sub wins, the only one Id might call impressive is Ogawa, and Timura is OK, but nothing great.

And if Big Nog is the only guy to ever sub Mirko, I dont really think you can call his sub defense his weakness.

The fact is, Barnett beat a top 10 HW, and Mirko beat a non-heavyweight that probably isn't in the top 10. I'm not gonna shit on his win, but Barnetts was just better as far as Fighter of the Year goes

Originally Posted by sasasa

2) It is not Cro Cop's fault that Barnett had a difficult time with Nogueira. It is not like Cro Cop had a soft semi final bracket, he was facing the MW champion and he beat him worse than anyone ever has before. If the brackets were reversed its not that hard to imagine Cro Cop having an easier time with Nog (he was after all breezing through him the first time they fought before the armbar, but since then he has trained in submission defense for 3 years with Werdum so I doubt it would happen again) and Barnett would have a tougher time with Silva. Cro Cop had no impact on Barnett's fight with Nogueira so why are you punishing him for it? If Barnett had beat Nog quicker (I know its a difficult thing to ask) or at the very least spent less energy and sustained less damage winning a decision then I guess the final's would have been closer, but again that was up to Barnett, not Cro Cop, which brings me to my third point.

Im not punishing anybody. Im just saying beating a battered, bruised and tired Barnett is not the same thing as beating a fresh healthy one. I think Crocop is a better fighter than Barnett, and style-wise he's probably Barnetts worst possible fight. But we're not judging who is the best fighter or who would win a certain fight. We're judging who had the most impressive year.

Originally Posted by sasasa

3) "Barnett (Whom he's already beaten twice..." did you actually just write this? You are trying to make a case for Barnett to win fighter of the year and you are downplaying Cro Cop's victory over him because he has already beaten him twice? What does that tell you about who is a better fighter? This also contradicts what you wrote right after "and Mirko breezed through Wandy in about 2 minutes while Barnett fought a war with Nog.)" Since you are admitting that Cro Cop has already beaten Barnett twice, why do you think that Barnett being fatigued had any impact on the outcome of the finals? Yes maybe Barnett could have made it out of the first round, but judging by past fights it is hard to imagine Barnett actually beating Cro Cop.

Again, you're confusing better fighter with who was the fighter of the year. Ive already mentioned I think Crocop is a better fighter. And I think he'd beat Barnett 9 times out of 10. But that doesn't change the fact that Barnett has fought better competition that Mirko this year. And it also doesnt change the fact that a win over a battered Barnett is not as impressive as his wins over a healthy Barnett (Realistically though, he has one true win over Barnett before this fight. The first one ended kinda weirdly)

I do kinda see what you're saying, though. I should have expressed myself a little better. Mirko beating Barnett again isnt one of the best accomplishments a fighter has done this year. It's certainly not easy and he deserves credit for it. But I'm not going to over credit him for it.

My opinion is Barnett is FOTY over Crocop due to:

A) More fights this year
B) More ranked wins this year
C) More fights against HW's this year
D) Beating the number 2 HW in the world, which only Fedor had done this century.

When I hear people talk about why Mirko is FOTY, I always hear:

A) He won the OWGP

It's just my opinion, and people can vote however they want. But Im not gonna say a guy is FOTY because of the belt he wears, I'm gonna do it because of the fights he's had.

[Yep.]

Originally Posted by sasasa

You contradict yourself several times in this post.

1) You completely downplay Cro Cop's win over Yoshida while giving praise to Barnett for beating Hunt. You are right Hunt is an overrated top 10 HW, he is only there because he beat Cro Cop because Hunt was a bad matchup for Cro Cop, however he was a not a bad matchup for Barnett. Hunt has poor takedown defense and even poorer submission defense, which play right into Barnett's strengths. Yoshida on the other hand is a fighter who has all of his victories by way of submission, something that plays into Cro Cop's weakness (if he has one). Cro Cop has beaten submission fighters before but none with the takedowns of Yoshida (olympic gold medalist in judo). So while rankings wise (which is completely subjective anyways) Barnett had a more "difficult" 2nd round opponent, style wise Cro Cop had a tougher one. And if Yoshida is no challenge to Cro Cop than certainly Hunt was no challenge to Barnett.

2) It is not Cro Cop's fault that Barnett had a difficult time with Nogueira. It is not like Cro Cop had a soft semi final bracket, he was facing the MW champion and he beat him worse than anyone ever has before. If the brackets were reversed its not that hard to imagine Cro Cop having an easier time with Nog (he was after all breezing through him the first time they fought before the armbar, but since then he has trained in submission defense for 3 years with Werdum so I doubt it would happen again) and Barnett would have a tougher time with Silva. Cro Cop had no impact on Barnett's fight with Nogueira so why are you punishing him for it? If Barnett had beat Nog quicker (I know its a difficult thing to ask) or at the very least spent less energy and sustained less damage winning a decision then I guess the final's would have been closer, but again that was up to Barnett, not Cro Cop, which brings me to my third point.

3) "Barnett (Whom he's already beaten twice..." did you actually just write this? You are trying to make a case for Barnett to win fighter of the year and you are downplaying Cro Cop's victory over him because he has already beaten him twice? What does that tell you about who is a better fighter? This also contradicts what you wrote right after "and Mirko breezed through Wandy in about 2 minutes while Barnett fought a war with Nog.)" Since you are admitting that Cro Cop has already beaten Barnett twice, why do you think that Barnett being fatigued had any impact on the outcome of the finals? Yes maybe Barnett could have made it out of the first round, but judging by past fights it is hard to imagine Barnett actually beating Cro Cop.

This is the definitive post of this thread. Kudos.

[EvilScott]

Fighter of the year is GSP or Crocop.

[Newb]

Originally Posted by Yep.

In case you didn't remember the Sherdog poll before the OWGP happened, 30% of Sherdog posters thought that Wandy was going to win it, a higher percentage than any of the other three fighters.

And I think you need to respond to the poster above you rather than me, he made his points much more clearly than I did.

Meh. A sherdog poll isn't exactly scientific, and certainly isn't a an accurate sampling pool of unbiased MMA predictions or analysis.

Yeah, I answered the other guy too.