Elbows to a downed opponent's head, statistics

[galathrax]

Originally Posted by eworden78

Care to elaborate on why one of the largest MMA databases in existence is an invalid source?
Especially in regards to this very general assessment.

do you disagree with the TS premise?

Yes, I DISAGREE WITH THE TS' PREMISE.

Why the hell is everyone ignoring my posts?

TS IS WRONG.

YOU ARE WRONG.

Originally Posted by machadojj

Like I said, the analysis should really be on what percentage of stoppages are from elbows. If your claim that they are comparable to other type of strikes or injuries, than maybe elbows are not so bad after all. If they are predominantly the cause of stoppages, they maybe they are indeed bad.

This is also a valid point.

It's so much easier to point and yell 4%, 4% though.

[moodswing]

I have no problem with elbows that cause cuts but why don't the refs clean the fighters up after they take a look at the cut. I remember several instances in pride where the ref would wipe the blood of the two combatants while one was still in guard. The UFC for instance ,referencing the Scott Smith fight, he had to ask to get the blood cleaned out of his eyes.

[SPSUDISPATCH]

You can forget stomps and soccer kicks. Why? Silva v. Sakuraba and Silva v. Kondo. UFC has been trying to get knees to the head allowed but the NSAC is resisting.

Also, elbows make the ground game MORE exciting, not less. Look at CroCop v. Gonzaga. CC is an expert at stalling from the bottom for a standup in Pride. He just has to keep the opponent from posturing up and they can't hit him so the ref stands him up. Now, put him in with GG and uh oh, GG doesn't have to posture to fuck him up, he can just lump his head up with elbows. Matt Hughes v. Trigg II, after the big slam, Hughes tries to punch Trigg but Trigg blocks, so Hughes throws bows. Hughes v. Penn and Newton, throws a couple mixed with punches. Tanner and Loiseau both are known for their vicious elbow strikes and I don't mean their ability to cut.

Meanwhile, in Pride, look how often GNP is effective. It is much less prevalent than in UFC and wrestlers tend not to do as well. BJJ and strikers do better because the BJJ guy can set up a sub or sweep without worrying about an elbow and strikers have an easier time stalling for the standup. Overall, elbows make for better fights.

[Gai Jin]

Originally Posted by Vox

Ok, let's see if I can save myself from the white-belt's-first-post stigma with this post.

A few days ago, in a blog out there, somebody clamored, as often happens, for elbows to the head of a downed opponent to be thrown out of the rulebook, because they stop too many fights due to cuts.

A couple of weeks ago, in one of sherdog's radio shows (can't remember which one), one of the hosts also mentioned this belief, and then said that he and his co-host didn't have any data to support or deny this belief.

So...finally tired of hearing arguments based on "I think" and "I believe" I decided to go look for the data.

I went through the results in the fightfinder from UFC 30 to UFC72, with all UFN and TUF finales included, and got the following numbers:

Events: 58
Fights: 457
Stoppages marked as "doctor stoppage" or "cuts": 19

So...4.15% of the fights between UFC30 and UFC72 have been stopped by a doctor or by cuts. Out of these 19, one for sure was a leg injury (Irvin's busted knee), one was an arm injury (Tim Silvia v. Mir) and I'm sure there are other non-elbow-hit related injuries that I just don't remember and didn't have the video to check out.

So...let's concede that there's 17 fights stopped from cuts resulting from elbows to the head of a downed opponent. only 3.71% of fights in the last 58 UFC events have been stopped because of cuts done with elbows (remember, this is a supposition, because there's plenty of "doctor stoppage" without a reason in the fightfinder).

In case anybody is curious, I also pulled out other data for the last 15 UFC PPVs, like knockouts and submissions and so on...you can follow the thread here My posts are under the same nick as here, Vox.

So...3.71% of fights being stopped this way is enough reason for elbows to be outlawed in MMA? Not in my opinion...what about in yours?

Nice job. I guess they're not all that impacting when you break it down like that.

[davidf]

This has been a reasonable and interesting debate over the past few days. Elbows are a definite MA techniqe. The stats posted seem reasonable. The point about longer term effects on the career of a fighter is also an intelligent point. Soccer kicks and stomps are both techniques that I would use in a self defense situation...no doubt. I wonder where the line is drawn between sport (athletic competition) and street fight. I'd have no isssue in a street fight going after the groin or the eyes but I do not think that makes sense in an athletic competition. Im not saying a stomp is like biting someone or ripping off their ear but it does seem that if my opponent is in a position to receive a soccer kick that I could probably punch him or submit him just as easily. The head butt would be pretty effective from the guard and I do not read any posts calling for that rule change. I would be curious to know where the line between sport and street should be drawn.

[galathrax]

Originally Posted by davidf

Im not saying a stomp is like biting someone or ripping off their ear but it does seem that if my opponent is in a position to receive a soccer kick that I could probably punch him or submit him just as easily. The head butt would be pretty effective from the guard and I do not read any posts calling for that rule change. I would be curious to know where the line between sport and street should be drawn.

Your first part is wrong... many many times in UFC, an opponent goes down to one knee or gets out of position, and soccer kicks/knees to the head of a downed opponent/stomps would have ended the fight. Instead, they are forced to throw punches, and the fight continues. This is so obvious, I hope you don't need examples.

The second part about the line between a sport and a street fight... PRIDE used stomps/soccer kicks/knees to the head of a downed opponent for years (since PRIDE 13, I believe). They rarely resulted in stoppages. I don't have enough free time to do the stastical analysis, but I'm sure that where soccer kicks/stomps/knees to the head of a downed opponent were used, they actually ended the fight ~% as elbows end fights in the UFC.

[eworden78]

Originally Posted by galathrax

Yes, I DISAGREE WITH THE TS' PREMISE.

Why the hell is everyone ignoring my posts?

TS IS WRONG.

YOU ARE WRONG.

WTF am I wrong about?

Yes I have not read all your posts, sorry, I jumped into this thread late and 90% of the post in the 13 pages of post on here are the same crap over and over.

Edit: My comment wasn't a response to you in the first place! WTF?

[GrazZ]

Originally Posted by vonbrohon

They need to allow knees/kicks too.

knees yes, kicks and stomps are just pointless imo

i wanna see what Shogun does without them heh

[davidf]

OK I will concede that scenerio where a soccer kick could be a technique of choice and I don't need examples. Im not anti-any technique. I just wonder where to draw the line was not adressing any specific technique either. Your points are valid. I just wonder where or if a line needs to be drawn on legal techniques. With out being an ass I'd say "shouldn't hair pulling be allowed"? I'm making the case for rules but I do not know what the rules should be. It is interesting how the opinions breakdown between the guys who train/fight and the guys who watch. By the way a triple decker pecker wrecker....that'd be illegal right?

[Zeke's Chaingun]

Originally Posted by galathrax

care to respond to my point?

it's not <4%. But I get the feeling this thread will be the start of a massive misconception with the whole issue. Great.

Which point? You have a whole bunch of things that you were saying. Narrow it down for me.