**** ALL OPINIONS / STATS on SHOGUN-MACHIDA fight ORGANIZED HERE (pics / links) ****

[Zeicon]

LATEST NEWS: One of the three judges admits that he scored the bout incorrectly in favor of Machida and that Shogun was indeed the real winner upon rewatching the fight:

Fighting a restrictive MMA judging system - UFC - Yahoo! Sports




First things first:

- The audience was largely in favor of Machida before the fight. After the decision was announced, the only thing you could hear was boos, boos and more boos.

- Rogan and Goldberg gave the fight to Shogun.




Dana White: "I thought Shogun won"

Link:
Dana White "I thought Shogun won the fight." [video]




MMA journalists, websites:

FightMetric: 49-47 Rua
CompuStrike: Rua outlanded Machida 89-50 in Total Strikes landed including 73 Leg Strikes landed. Rua dominated the fight and did just about everything he needed to do to beat the undefeated Machida, including outlanding Machida in every round, but apparently it wasn't enough for the judges.
Yahoo Sports / Cagewriter: 48-47 Rua
BloodyElbow : 48-47 Rua
USAToday: 48-47 Rua, 49-46 Rua
Savage Science: 49-46 Rua
ESPN / Jake Rossen: 49-46 or 48-47 Rua
MMA Fanhouse / Michael David Smith: 48-47 Rua
411mania.com: 48-47 Rua
CagePotato: 49-46 Rua
MMATorch : 48-47 Rua
MMAJunkie : 49-46 or 48-47 Rua
MMAMania : 50-45 Rua
5 Ounces of Pain : Rua (no score given)
Fightlinker : Rua (no score given)
MMAConvert: Rua ("Machida was given a gift")
ProMMA.Info: 50-45 Rua
Sherdog:
Jordan Breen -- 48-47 Rua
Brian Knapp -- 48-47 Rua
Mike Fridley -- 50-45 Rua
Sports Illustrated (thanks jamers):
Ben Fowlkes - Rua ("They say you have to clearly beat the champion if you want to take his belt. Mauricio "Shogun" Rua seemed to have done just that at UFC 104 on Saturday night, but the mere fact that UFC light heavyweight champ Lyoto Machida was still conscious at the end was apparently enough for the judges to give him the victory")
Joss Gross: 48-47 Rua
MMARising / Robert Sargeant (thanks TheEnigma): 49-46 Rua
FightLine: 49-46 Rua (thanks karatelarusso)
Loretta Hunt (thanks On Letting Go): Rua ("I am very disappointed in the decision. Very upsetting. The sport owes Mauricio "Shogun" Rua a big apology.")
TATAME (thanks Radamantis): "Maurício “Shogun” Rua was the underdog, but the 2005 Pride GP champion “surprised” everybody with a perfect strategy and performance, dominating three out of five rounds against Lyoto Machida, but losing by unanimous decision (48-47)."

credit: dystemper (thanks for compiling most of this list) and others for contributing (listed above)

Dystemper's original thread:
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f2/wha.../#post34126203




Pro fighters who thought Shogun won:

- Anthony Johnson (post-fight conference)
- Joe Stevenson (post-fight conference)
- Cain Velasquez (post-fight conference)
- Shane Carwin (via Twitter)
"great night of fights. further proof you have to finish as the judges just can't score MMA"
- Denis Kang (via Twitter)
"Shogun got robbed last night IMO."
- Efrain Escudero (via Twitter)
"I'm sorry but shogun won that fight easy"
- Kenny Florian (via Twitter)
"I love Machida but Shogun won that fight!!"
- Joe Lauzon (via Twitter)
"I think Shogun won it."
- Frank Trigg
"he [Shogun] got robbed, was looking 4 don king"
- Roy Nelson
"I just lost $5 on shogun, I am mad, shogun won 4 rounds to 1"
- Joe Doerkson
"Shogun won four rounds out of five ... I am disgusted."
- Brendan Schaub
"Shogun won that fight."
- Jorge Gurgel
"Wow. I was cheering for Machida, but believe Shogun just got robbed... That is the very worst feeling in the world."
- BJ Penn (via Facebook)
"Did Shogun win? yeah."
- Rampage Jackson (via his website)
"Shogun getting robbed like that was pretty cut throat"
- Jon Jones (via Twitter)
"Watched it again this morning and still just saying wow. I guess the next guy might just need to bring a sword"
- Ben Henderson (via Twitter)
"To me that was a bad decision. Rua was more active and the aggressor."
- Kit Cope (via Twitter)
"What?!?! That was the worst robbery I have seen in the UFC ever!!!"
- Jake Shields (via Twitter)
"Even though Shogun should have won that fight!"
- Miguel Torres (via Twitter)
"Shogun is back. Very impressed, Muay Thai 1, Karate 0."
- Cameron Dollar? (via Twitter)
"Man the ufc judging tonight was garbage"
- Jay Silva (via Twitter)
"Ufc 104 was okay rua won the fight but u all know u gotta bit the camp 2 be a champ, but wht about the rampage fight hmmmm"
- Matt Brown (via Twitter)
"Shogun def robbed, but after a 2nd watch it was closer than I thought at first. I gave Machida rd 1 & MAYBE rd 3. Just my two cents..."
- Tiki Ghosn (via Twitter)
"Karate doesn't work against Muay Thai"
- Frank Shamrock (via Twitter)
"Shogun won that fight"
- Antonio Silva
- Vitor Belfort (TATAME.com)
"UFC judges aren’t good to judge. To beat the champion, you only have to win, it doesn’t matter how."
- Rickson Gracie (according to Shogun)
- Randy Couture
"Shogun won 4 rounds."
- Wanderlei Silva (training partner)
"he [Machida] did not do enough to win the fight"
- Rashad Evans (MMA Live)
- Marcus Jones (MMA Live)
- Dave Meltzer
- Tito Ortiz (MMA Connected)
"I gave 4 of 1 rounds to Shogun as well."


Pro fighters who thought Machida won:

- Josh Thomson (via Twitter)
"Watch the dam fight again. Machida won 3rnds an shogun won the last 2."
- Anderson Silva (Machida's best friend)
"Lyoto won every round." (TATAME.com inteview)





Fight Metric stats:


link: Machida-Shogun




CompuStrike stats / conclusion:


link: CompuStrike - Every Strike Counts




Sherdog forum poll:

link: **EVERYONE WHO THINKS SHOGUN WILL BEAT MACHIDA** sign names here




Sherdog.com poll:

link: www.sherdog.com



Two of the biggest sites in Brazil (polls)


credit: HadtoReg

[tehk1w1]

Too bad the only people's opinion that actually counts are the judges, eh?

[Zeicon]

^^
ONE OF THE WORST ROBBERIES IN MMA HISTORY




You can file a formal complaint with the Carlifornia State Athletic Commission like many of us have done:

CSAC@dca.ca.gov

Originally Posted by D'evils

E. Judging Criteria
1. Judges are required to determine the winner of a bout that goes to it's full time limit based upon the following criteria:
-Clean Strikes
-Effective Grappling
-Octagon Control
-Effective Aggressiveness

F. Clean Strikes
1. The fighter who is landing both effective and efficient clean strikes.
2. There are two ways of measuring strikes:
-the total number of clean strikes landed (more efficient)
-the total number of heavy strikes landed (more effective)

G. The heavier striker who lands with efficiency, deserves more credit from the Judges than total number landed.
1. If the striking power between the fighters was equal, then the total number landed would be used as the criteria.
2. The total number of strikes landed, should be of sufficient quantity favoring a fighter, to earn a winning round.

H. Strikes thrown from the top position of the guard, are generally heavier and more effective than those thrown from the back.
1. Thus a Judge shall recognize that effective strikes thrown from the top guard position are of "higher quality", than thrown from the bottom.
2. The Judge shall recognize that this is not always the case.
However, the vast majority of fighters prefer the top guard position to strike from. This is a strong indication of positional dominance for striking.

I. Effective Grappling
1. The Judge shall recognize the value of both the clean takedown and active guard position.
2. The Judge shall recognize that a fighter who is able to cleanly takedown his opponent, is effectively grappling.
3. A Judge shall recognize that a fighter on his back in an active guard position, can effectively grapple, through execution of repeated threatening attempts at submission and reversal resulting in continuous defense from the top fighter.
4. A Judge shall recognize that a fighter who maneuvers from guard to mount is effectively grappling.
5. A Judge shall recognize that the guard position alone shall be scored neutral or even, if none of the preceding situations were met.(items 2-4)
6. A Judge shall recognize that if the fighters remain in guard the majority of a round with neither fighter having an edge in clean striking or effective grappling, (items 2-4), the fighter who scored the clean takedown deserves the round.
7. A clean reversal is equal to a clean takedown in effective grappling

J. Octagon Control
1. The fighter who is dictating the pace, place and position of the fight.
2. A striker who fends off a grappler's takedown attempt to remain standing and effectively strike is octagon control.
3. A grappler who can takedown an effective standing striker to ground fight is octagon control.
4. The fighter on the ground who creates submission, mount or clean striking opportunities

K. Effective Aggressiveness
1. This simply means who is moving forward and finding success.(scoring)
2. Throwing a strike moving backwards is not as effective as a strike thrown moving forward.
3. Throwing strikes and not landing is not effective aggressiveness.
4. Moving forward and getting struck is not effective aggressiveness.
5. Shooting takedowns and getting countered and fended off is not effective aggressiveness.

L. Criteria Evaluation
1. Each judge is to evaluate which fighter was most effective. Thus striking and grappling skills are top priority.
2. Evaluating the criteria requires the use of a sliding scale. Fights can remain standing or grounded. Judges shall recognize that it isn't how long the fighters are standing or grounded, as to the scoring the fighters achieve ,while in those positions.
3. If 90% of the round is grounded one fighter on top, then:
-effective grappling is weighed first.
-clean striking is weighed next. If clean strikes scored in the round, the Judge shall factor it
in. Clean Striking can outweigh Effective Grappling while the fighters are grounded.
-octagon control is next (pace, place & position)

4. The same rational holds true if 90% of the round were standing. Thus:
-clean striking would be weighed first (fighter most effective)
-clean grappling second (any takedowns or effective clinching)
-octagon control which fighter maintained better position? Which fighter created the situations
that led to effective strikes?

5. If a round was 50% standing and 50% on the ground, then:
-clean striking and effective grappling are weighed more equally.
-octagon control would be factored next

6. In all three hypothetical situations, effective aggressiveness is factored in last. It is the
criteria of least importance. Since the definition calls for moving forward and scoring, it is
imperative for the Judges to look at the scoring first.


Effective Striking
-Shogun threw more strikes, landed with more accuracy, and appeared to have more power.
-Section G outlines:"2. The total number of strikes landed, should be of sufficient quantity favoring a fighter, to earn a winning round."

Shogun wins this category easily by those standards.


Effective Grappling
-While Lyoto defeded all takedowns, takedown defense does not constitute effective grappling.

This is a wash.


Octagon Control
-Shogun controlled the pace and place of the fight. He took center stage after every exchange and the exchanges began with him stalking Machida.
-Lyoto defended takedowns.

This comes down to which you value more. I favor Shogun in this category but you can call it a wash.


Effective Aggression
-Shogun moved forward constantly, this constitutes effective aggresion.
-Lyoto was constantly back pedaling and the criteria states,"Throwing a strike moving backwards is not as effective as a strike thrown moving forward."
-"Throwing strikes and not landing is not effective aggressiveness." Lyoto threw with less accuracy than Shogun.

Shogun easily takes this category.

What say the rest of you?

Originally Posted by D'evils

Fight Metric Round by Round
Shogun: 19 - 21 - 19 - 10 - 13
Machida: 11 - 7 - 15 - 3 - 6

Compustrike Totals
Shogun: 89/155
Machida: 50/105

Given these facts, it's clear who the winner was on Saturday and it's not even close.

^^^

[Last Emperor]

Originally Posted by tehk1w1

Too bad the only people's opinion that actually counts are the judges, eh?

yes, that is infact too bad

but you know what counts more....the people that actually pay for and watch the UFC

90% of them think shogun won

you know what else counts?

the management of the UFC, telling shogun he really won that fight

you know what else also counts?

your peers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ALOT of UFC fighters were saying that shogun won the fight

ask yourself this:

how many fighters you think came up to Machida, and told him he won

[JustBleed]

Some people still say he lost to BJ Penn, maybe Machida karate comes with the ability to manipulate judges?

[GoPlataUrself]

shogun won man plain and simple, feel sorry for anyone who had money on this fight. post the judges names, addresses and phone numbers please

[Shockwave_**]

I still cant believe this shit!!!!!

[klidemarter]

Great research and an organized post. Rua was stabbed in the back and you could see it in his face.

[dystemper]

not sure how i feel about the TS stealing everyone else's hard work into his own thread.

[dystemper]

Originally Posted by klidemarter

Great research and an organized post. Rua was stabbed in the back and you could see it in his face.

not his research. :-/