[King Kabuki]

Okay, so for a long time now in both the Medical and Supplement communities, herbal medicine (homeopathy) has been considered “debunked” as nothing more than voodoo hogwash that is not backed by clinical tests showing results that companies that sell herbs claim. Yet almost all of us know people or ARE people who swear by certain herbal concoctions to accomplish this or that, who are only backed by their own results and testimonials of people they have referred to use of said herbal concoction. Nowadays people tend just to dismiss the idea that herbs accomplish anything, and very few people inquire as to why. So I’m taking the time to write this to let posters here know there IS a reason why, and that actually yes herbs DO work. It just has to do with Companies looking to cheat you, and studies being biased.

I’m sure some of you read when I posted this in Chad’s thread about Hamburger Helper:

With Ephedrine the L-ephedrine isomer was the one standardizations were tested for or against. Meaning products should have contained 25mg of L-ephedrine if they read 25mg of ephedrine on the label. Unforutnately the natural source for ephedrine contains a host of other alkaloids such as psuedoephedrine, methylephedrine, norpsuedoephedrine, etc. L-ephedrine works on both alpha and beta receptors, and facilitates the best benefits. However, most of the "cheapie" brands contained the other alkaloids instead, some of which have had markedly negative affects in terms of raising blood-pressure. Then to make matters worse a lot of these companies will double or triple the amount of the shit alkaloids to account for the full 25mg that is supposed to be in their product, providing higher doses of possible danger to their customers.

Do you understand what this means? This means that with Ephedra particularly (which is an herbal supplement), companies were taking what they knew were the more dangerous alkaloids and using it to make the 25mg of “Ephedra” they were selling you. This is one of the key reasons the supplement ended up getting pulled, too.

Another key thing to remember when venturing into the world of herbal supplements is that there is a huge market for raw materials that tend to whore out bastardizations of pure forms of herbs. Tribulus Terrestris extract being a popular one this occurs with a lot. There is actually solid information that Tribulus Terrestris L. from above-ground parts, containing five to ten milligrams per kilogram of bodyweight per day of active Protodioscin brings about significant performance enhancing affect. Problem is you’ll almost never find this form of the extract in 90% of the Tribulus supplements available on the market. Why? Well it’s real simple. That would be much more expensive to the Company.

With herbs an important thing to understand also is growing factor. For instance, wine grown in Northern California during the dry season is going to be significantly different from the same wine from the same vineyard grown during the rainy season, and even more so from a different vineyard’s version of the same wine grown in Alabama. This applies to herbs used in herbal supplements as well. Tribulus is another good example of this. It’s common name is “puncture vine” (which any mountain biker whose ever ridden out West can attest to, this plant has cost them many a tire). However, it’s needless to say that the version of Tribulus growing on a trail somewhere in Utah is not going to be the same as the version grown in the high altitudes climate of Bulgaria. But the raw material market doesn’t make it’s money distinguishing the difference. Rather to them, to minimize cost, they would have you believe and herb is an herb. Ludicrous. Furthermore, they’ll use all of the research data applied to the more pure and effective form of the herb to back their marketing schemes. Then what happens is when their shit version is found by Independent studies to “not work” the entire herb family gets dismissed.

Unfortunately for herbs most of the studies done to test them also do not run analyticals to find out if the active ingredient levels match the studies that show positive results. Doing this would crack down on another raw material scam Companies do, “spiking.” This refers to adding more of the principle active used in standardization to strengthen shit versions of an herb. Chris Lockwood (whom much of this information is coming from, he’s the current Vice President of the International Society of Sports Nutrition) equates this to using more wood to build your home. Good theory, but without additional nails and supporting materials, it just doesn’t work. However, it’s legal because of lack of regulation within the Industry.

To give another example, the herb Rhodiola is another one that’s been considered “debunked” for quite some time. However, companies were selling R. crenulata, indeed a crap (but less costly to them) version of the herb. R. rosea standardized to 3.6 percent rosavin, 1.6 percent salidroside, and not more than .1 percent p-tyrosol (these are agents used in standardization of herbs, fingerprinted herbs don’t contain these typically, just the extract) per 100 milligrams of R. rosea root has consistently been shown to provide good results in enhancing training.

So, where herbs are concerned because of lack of Industry regulation currently it’s best to understand that many Companies are going to do what costs them less to do that they can sell for more. That’s just “smart business” to them. As a consumer, it’s your responsibility to stay educated and make sure you know if and when you’re being duped. Hoodia is another herb going through the same shit recently. In my store there’s about 5 different companies that sell it on our shelves. Only one of them actually gets the results they advertise. Unfortunately for them, a lot of people will buy the cheaper shit versions, then when they don’t work, tell the whole world how ineffective hoodia is. Hoodia, like most other herbs, are not ineffective. You just have to know HOW to buy them, and what questions to ask. Also, for my sake, ask the questions politely. Don’t talk to any store employee (who is not a representative of those Companies) like a dick who thinks you know something they don’t.

[ground_N_pound5]

tooo long of a post to read

[fat_wilhelm]

Originally Posted by ground_N_pound5

tooo long of a post to read

If you don't want to read it, why even comment?

Kabuki -- my question is, what's the best way to differentiate between the good products and the crappy ones that are filled w/ fillers, subpar raw materials, etc.? Is this evident just by reading the label? I assume not, but I'm not sure. Admittedly, I don't know a great deal about herbs.

EDIT: OK -- I swear there was a post there that I was responding to. Deleted, I assume?

[King Kabuki]

lol Yeah, I deleted that dude's post because it's clear trolling. But I put it back since you responded to it. But I advise the poster to watch it with that crap.

In terms of your question, right now it's VERY hard to say because the FDA regulations on what is put on a bottle don't much cater to quality as much as it does to proper or improper marketing such as making claims about illnesses, etc.

It's unfortunately up to who is selling it, and doing research about herbs and what forms of herbs make a difference. The information is out there but it might take some research to find. Like when I mentioned Hoodia. GNC right now has 3 lines of Hoodia. H57, Hoodie Supreme, and DEX-L10, some stores have even more than that. The Dex-L10 is the only one that I know of that is consistently reputable, and contains the South African Hoodia Gordoni that works.

GNC's Herbal Plus line actually has a decent reputation, not sure why. Though their Natural Brand is a little left-to-be-desired.

Nature's Way is also a very reputable brand of herbs as well. I use their Feverfew, when you feel a headache coming on, two of those kicks it right in the ass. it also actually does bring down Fevers as well.

Best bet is to be in contact with either an herbologist, or a Homeopathic Doctor. I usually recommend everyone to attempt to find a Homeopathic Doctor and use them as part of your general-health team. Every person in my opinion should know a good GP Doctor, with good references to reputable specialists, a good DIETICIAN (Nutritionists will suffice but it's EASY to be certified as a Nutritionist versus 4 years of school to be a Dietician), and a good Homeopathic doctor for different perspectives, and avoidance of tentatively harmful medications being peddled for a buck. Homeopaths should know their shit when it comes to herbs and extracts, and the standardization process.

Also, there's what Chad hinted at in sudo's thread. You can always get the plant (or fingerprinted versions of the plant, which are just gelatin pills with NOTHING but the herb extract in them), and concoct it yourself. Ironically, Witch "potions" are this...nothing more than herbal teas. Occasionally I'll get someone in my store looking for things like Goldenseal or Blue Corn, to make medicine with.

[Girljock]

Good read KK. It made me think about the recent Hoodia shit. I was watching some Dr. show on Fox News Sunday.....I like the guy...he likes some suppliments. Anyway he was saying that all this Hoodia hoopla is just that. Cause the place where the plant actually comes from is a protected zone or something....so no outside companies can get into to farm the product. I"m sure I"m not explaining it correctly but hopefully you get the idea. He pretty much said...anything that claims it has this Hoodia plant in it....is false...cause no one can get there to farm it. Interesting.

[King Kabuki]

Good read KK. It made me think about the recent Hoodia shit. I was watching some Dr. show on Fox News Sunday.....I like the guy...he likes some suppliments. Anyway he was saying that all this Hoodia hoopla is just that. Cause the place where the plant actually comes from is a protected zone or something....so no outside companies can get into to farm the product. I"m sure I"m not explaining it correctly but hopefully you get the idea. He pretty much said...anything that claims it has this Hoodia plant in it....is false...cause no one can get there to farm it. Interesting.

Thank you. And that Doctor is PARTLY correct. If there is a Company that spends money to replicate the growing conditions of the best place there is to farm Hoodia, then of course they're stuff will work. And contrary to his words, there are companies who give a shit enough about selling quality herbs to do this. Another problem with the "debunking" of the herb industry is the Medical Community's zealots who get on Soap Boxes and proclaim this or that, and at-best they're relaying second-hand information. I always question the motives of anyone who zealously preaches both for and against something, as there's almost always an agenda. The Medical community divided by pharmaceutical versus whollistic Medicing tend to get a little...venomous towards each other.

[supersudo]

excellent post

especially love the wine vineyard.. analogy.. i'm totally gonna have to use that one..

[Rjkd12]

Originally Posted by King Kabuki

Unfortunately for herbs most of the studies done to test them also do not run analyticals to find out if the active ingredient levels match the studies that show positive results. Doing this would crack down on another raw material scam Companies do, “spiking.” This refers to adding more of the principle active used in standardization to strengthen shit versions of an herb. Chris Lockwood (whom much of this information is coming from, he’s the current Vice President of the International Society of Sports Nutrition) equates this to using more wood to build your home. Good theory, but without additional nails and supporting materials, it just doesn’t work. However, it’s legal because of lack of regulation within the Industry.

I kinda disagree with this. it depends on who is doing the testing. If a university is doing the testing on an herb to see they aren't looking for special brands or trying to prove/disprove anything. EVERYTHING is controlled for in a study. If they are giving humans, mice, rats, or hepatocytes an herb, they are giving it the extract to know EXACTLY how much is given, and in the case of mammels its given as mg/kg or something to control for size. I mean, they don't grind up gingko biloba leaves and sprinkle them in the mouths of the elderly and make them do the daily sudoku to test for memory/intelligence. Its much more scientific than that. Also, the herbs that are used are normally of the highest quality available (that can realistically be found).

I would only disagree with that if muscletech is testing herbs that they don't sell to promote their own product. Or if a tiny university did a few tests and the paper isn't in a good journal. Even big corporations don't have a lot of money for science testing most of the time, and many of them have other agendas.

The amount of time and effort that goes into a good paper that gets published in a good journal is amazing. These people get hundred thousand dollar grants (sometimes millions) to spend on the research, they use VO2 machins that easily cost thousands or tens of thousands. Each animal can be from 20-200 dollars each also. They aren't going to spend all that money and then go to Save-on-Supps to get their herbs. They get their herbs from major companies and pay out their ass on them for purity and whatnot. I bet if you took a hit from medicinal marijuanna you'd be floored. The shit they test on is MAJOR chronic.

[King Kabuki]

I kinda disagree with this. it depends on who is doing the testing. If a university is doing the testing on an herb to see they aren't looking for special brands or trying to prove/disprove anything. EVERYTHING is controlled for in a study. If they are giving humans, mice, rats, or hepatocytes an herb, they are giving it the extract to know EXACTLY how much is given, and in the case of mammels its given as mg/kg or something to control for size. I mean, they don't grind up gingko biloba leaves and sprinkle them in the mouths of the elderly and make them do the daily sudoku to test for memory/intelligence. Its much more scientific than that. Also, the herbs that are used are normally of the highest quality available (that can realistically be found).

Well, like I said, the information regarding that was provided by Chris Lockwood, saying it's standard practice for conductors of studies regarding herbs not to run control tests to ascertain what was given in the studies that proved positive feedback.

But you hinted on a point, he may have been referencing studies that aren't as idealistic as you say. Most of the studies you hint at in your posts are the ones conducted by major Universities and the like. Unfortunately in the Medical Community and Supplement Industry rarely are THOSE kinds of studies cited to either back or consider "debunked" certain families of herbs. There is a distinct difference, and I think you're aware of that, hence your opening line. But make no mistake, there are tons of labs out there who get paid a lot of money not only to test certain things, but to draw specific conclusions about them. When you go from scholastic studying of these things to Independent Labs and Companies, the pool gets dirty.

For instance:

This isn't an herbal supplement, but it illustrates what I'm talking about. In reference to ZMA, the study co-authered by Victor Conte of BALCO reported that the ZMA group had increases levels of total testosterone, free testosterone, and IGF-1 compared to plateaus or drops in the placebo group. However in arecent study by Dr. Richard Krieger, it was indicated that ZMA supplementation doesn't appear to enhance training adaptations in gym-rats.

Now, the question is who to believe? The co-founder of ZMA in the first-place who makes money selling it, or some Doctor just doing a study? The public is swarmed with both sides of the fence to the degree that it's foggy no matter where they roam unless they know what questions to ask. And who has monetary ties to what.

[farmboy]

That was a great post! It's a little frustrating to me to think of how much money I've probably wasted over the years on crap that didn't work, not because the herb advertised was ineffective, but because they weren't using the proper or efective version of the herb. The lack of promised results is a real letdown, especially when you really don't have that much money to start! It sickens me that these suited dickheads sit in their offices and just think of ways to save money by cheating loyal customers.