[Zion]

Originally Posted by Ian Coe

exhibit a



So creatine has no effect on atp AT ALL. Its all about the water weight huh.
Please, read about creatine before you reply

it was a question! did you see the question mark? i wasnt claiming that this is what creatine does. i was asking for clarification since it has been a while since I used creatine.


exhibit b

Different mechanisms


BA increases the threshold as it were, but it doesn't increase atp stores
This one I was being a bit of a **** with, but your statement was that of a 5 year old writing it.
I appologise for this one

okay, cool we are clear on this.

i was just saying what it gives the user, endurance, better cardio, blah blah. i wasnt talking about the mechanism of the supplement.

[stu300asu]

I am an RD(registered Dietician) and have also been an athlete and a bodybuilder at over 6'1" 240lbs and 6% BF. All the people talking about take a great multi vit. have no clue what they are talking about. There is no reliable study on the affects of a multi vit. and if you take a look at your urine about 2 hours after you take that vitamin you will notice a very dark color. This color is your body not absorbing any of those " vitamins" you are supposedly getting. BA and creatine are great for building muscle and endurance but there is absolutely no reason to take a vitamin. Eat right take down some protein shakes, eat green veggies, and get your post workout shake in check and that is all you need. Or you can take the route most of your friends do and keep dumping money on those "vitamins"

[MikeMartial]

Originally Posted by stu300asu

and if you take a look at your urine about 2 hours after you take that vitamin you will notice a very dark color. This color is your body not absorbing any of those " vitamins" you are supposedly getting.

You do know what that "dark color" is, right?

Here's a hint: It has extremely low solubility, it is hydrophilic, it's half life is around 1 hour, and the max dose that can be absorbed is roughly 27mg. Any ideas yet?

Originally Posted by stu300asu

but there is absolutely no reason to take a vitamin

Really? Are you sure? There's a multitude of studies done on vitamin deficiencies related to diet. But wait, we're talking about athletes, right? Right.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/72/2/598S

Because exercise stresses ****bolic pathways that depend on thiamine, riboflavin, and vitamin B-6, the requirements for these vitamins may be increased in athletes and active individuals. Theoretically, exercise could increase the need for these micronutrients in several ways: through decreased absorption of the nutrients; by increased turnover, ****bolism, or loss of the nutrients; through biochemical adaptation as a result of training that increases nutrient needs; by an increase in mitochondrial enzymes that require the nutrients; or through an increased need for the nutrients for tissue maintenance and repair. Biochemical evidence of deficiencies in some of these vitamins in active individuals has been reported, but studies examining these issues are limited and equivocal. On the basis of ****bolic studies, the riboflavin status of young and older women who exercise moderately (2.5–5 h/wk) appears to be poorer in periods of exercise, dieting, and dieting plus exercise than during control periods. Exercise also increases the loss of vitamin B-6 as 4-pyridoxic acid. These losses are small and concomitant decreases in blood vitamin B-6 measures have not been documented. There are no ****bolic studies that have compared thiamine status in active and sedentary persons. Exercise appears to decrease nutrient status even further in active individuals with preexisting marginal vitamin intakes or marginal body stores. Thus, active individuals who restrict their energy intake or make poor dietary choices are at greatest risk for poor thiamine, riboflavin, and vitamin B-6 status.

Granted, with an excellent diet, this wouldn't occur, but there's no question of the increased need in athletes. I know my diet is pretty damn good, and I also know that the insurance of a mutlivitamin is pretty damn cheap.

Vitamin B2 status in athletes and the influence of riboflavin administration on neuromuscular irritability.
Haralambie G.

In order to obtain information on the vitamin B2 status in athletes in training, the following aspects were investigated: in one group of athletes, riboflavinuria at rest, during the autumn and winter months (mean values 23.8 and 9.45 mug/h, respectively); in the second group (n = 18), the activity of the nicotinamide-adenine-dinucleotide-phosphate-dependent red blood cell glutathione reductase (EC 1.6.4.2) and its activation by added flavin adenine dinucleotide. In 8 athletes, activation coefficients higher than 1.25 were found, indicating a biochemical deficiency of riboflavin. Erythrocyte transketolase (EC 2.2.1.1) was activated by more than 25% with added thiamine pyrophosphate in 12 cases. In muscle samples of 10 healthy patients (fresh fractures or removing of ****l plates from old fractures), glutathione reductase (mean activity 0.846 +/- 0.458 U/g wet weight) was activated by more than 25% in 5 cases. Administration of 10 mg of riboflavin per os resulted in moderate lowering of neuromuscular irritability (musculi vastus medialis and lateralis quadricipitis) particularly for 0.1-msec rectangular stimuli.

Odd study, I know, but it proves two points: A defieciency can occur, and increased neuromuscular irritability also means increased rate to fatigue.

Oh, by the way, that "dark color" that you think is just "wasted" vitamins? Riboflavin. And the pharmacokinetics described at the top of the post does not account for every single vitamin and mineral found in a standard multivitamin.

If you wish to contribute to this forum as a dietitian, please be accurate in what you post. Generalizations made about studies, what should be taken, and what shouldn't be taken won't be held in high regard and such posts are viewed as empty and weak.

[stu300asu]

Look why would I post huge words that most people cant understand because honestly they have no need to know medical terms. That is why I used things like "dark urine". I have read up on some of your posts and I think I have a pretty good grasp on what you do. You try and tell everyone you are right and they are wrong. I simply posted my opinion and if people want to keep going to a grocery store and buying "quality" cheap vitamins that you imply then so be it. I have worked with top collegiate and professional strength coaches at top football programs. These guys are some of the best athletes in the world and I will tell you one thing you will not see many of these strength coaches promote is using vitamins that is just a fact. Do some strength coaches promote vitamin use, sure they do. But if you ask most of them why they promote them they really can't tell you. Everyone is going to have deficiencies in their body but a pill is not going to fill that void. The absorption of vitamins right now is just not what it needs to be scientifically to be affective. It will be someday but its just not at the moment. Again just my opinion my man.

[natesnathan2]

stack for cardio???