[Chad Hamilton]

That list is garbage.
She's bought and paid for...sorry if you like her Mick.

[Tkdmmafighter]

Originally Posted by King Kabuki

I actually disagree with most of that list.

CLA - Have clients who have used it successfully, moreso than those who legitimately tried it and reported it did not work (when I say legitimately I mean with proper eating and exercise, not just taking the pill and expecting magic to happen).

Pyruvate - I read an article where a PHD recommends it for purposes of fat mobilization (similar to Carnitine), and the studies I've read that claim to disclaim it seem largely alarmist in nature.

5-HTP (Tryptophan) - Works as a relaxant, one of our best-selling products for anti-stress.

And how are Amino Acids listed in the potentially harmful category when there are amino acids suggested above in the higher categories. BCAA's, Glutamine, Carnitine, come now. Which aminos are going to kill me, Arginine? Lysine? Tyrosine (which will actually enhance the affects of a fat-burner)?

DHEA - I take it, I'm alive and healthy and can pass a steroid test.

Bee Pollen - How in the Hell is that potentially harmful? Another one of our best-sellers either by itself or with Ginseng, and Royal Jelly. I think Caffeine is more harmful tentatively to those with pre-existing blood-pressure problems and/or heart-conditions than Bee Pollen could be.

kabuki, is DHEA still available? i heard somewhere it was illegal, i was gonna take it, but i cant find any.

[eljamaiquino]

Originally Posted by TKMaxx715

ehh id actually move glutamine down to wasting your time if anything. Most whey has glutamine in it anyways and glutamine isnt really all that much needed in your body taking in protein. Id throw weight gainers and creatine to possibly useful and protein supps along with adding fish oil to definately worth it.]

Where would you guys stick shark cartilage? I know they help joint pain but does fish oil cover that job pretty well? Should i take both?

I second this. If you're takling in enough protein, you're getting a bunch of glutamine already. Just eat more protein IMO.

Shark cartilage? Would you like some boron with that? LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

just use glucosamine complex. Shark cartilage does well for sharks, not humans.

[eljamaiquino]

Originally Posted by Tkdmmafighter

kabuki, is DHEA still available? i heard somewhere it was illegal, i was gonna take it, but i cant find any.

Its still legal, but many stores have stopped carrying it because it IS a hormone, and they don't want to take the chance.

You can probably find it online somewhere, but it only works well on the elderly from what I understand. Maybe when you get Kabuki's age it works..

[Terumo]

At first glance, I thought this was your list, Madmick. I'm glad it is not. I don't want to drag this into a lengthy discussion because most of you know my feelings on a good number of these supplements. I am just going to say that the list here is fast approaching trainwreck status. (Aside: Does this woman even know that free form tryptophan is illegal, that its only legal form is 5-HTP?)

Anyhow, here is my reconfiguration of the list:

DEFINITELY WORTH IT:
Whey, casein, or egg proteins
Whey hydrolysate + glucose PWO drinks
Essential fatty acids

POSSIBLY USEFUL:
Creatine monohydrate (Actually, I would put this in between this and the above category)
Green food powders (Same as above)
ZMA
Neurotransmitter formulas
Free form BCAA's
Free form Glutamine
Caffeine
Glucosamine/Chondroitin/Methylsulfonylmethane
Multiple vitamin formulas
Additional antioxidants (e.g. pycnogenol, CoQ-10, grape seed extract, A, C, E, Se,...)
5-hydroxytryptophan

WASTING YOUR TIME (or WASTING YOUR TIME UNLESS AT THE ELITE LEVEL):
Glycerol (POSSIBLY USEFUL for endurance athletes)
Tribulus terrestris (POSSIBLY USEFUL if standardized for total saponins and protodioscin)
Other free form amino acids (which encompasses NO supplements)
Calcium pyruvate
Ribose
DHEA
Just about everything else, unless I'm forgetting something

POTENTIALLY HARMFUL:
Chitosan
Many things, if taken improperly

[Madmick]

Originally Posted by Chad Hamilton

That list is garbage.
She's bought and paid for...sorry if you like her Mick.

I love her nutritional advice, I'm not so amped on her supplement advice. I brought the list to the forum to foment a debate.

Also, let's be reminded, the book is over 3 years old. That's longer than the average supplement life in my estimation.

It was worth it alone for Terumo's list. Sweet.

[Madmick]

Terumo,

You wouldn't put caffeine in the DEFINITELY USEFUL category? Why not?

Also, I'm assuming you put Multi-Vitamins only in the POSSIBLY USEFUL category because certain vitamins and minerals aren't absorbed as well from supplement sources as food sources (i.e. heme-iron)? And what do you think of time-released vs. standard formulas? What about liquid for tablet form?

I'd really appreciate it if you rounded out your pyramid, Terumo. Would you categorize these by number, please? (if you don't know or haven't researched the supplement, just put that):

1) Creatine Ethyl Esters (as opposed to monohydrate)
2) Green Tea & Green Tea Extract (w/Standardized Catechins)
3) Taurine
4) CLA**
5) Ginseng
6) L-Carnitine & Acetyl-L-Carnitine
7) Ephedrine HCL
8) Synephrine HCL
9) Yohimbine HCL
10) Fo-Ti
11) MCT' Oil and MCT-based powders (i.e. Muscle Milk)
12) Evening Primrose Oil
13) Colostrum
14) HMB
15) Sylimarin (Milk Thistle Extract)
16) Echinacea
17) Chamomile/Tea
18) Sesamin
19) Bromelain
20) Bee Pollen
21) Saw Palmetto
*I know your opinion, but I didn't want to speak on your behalf for this pyramid
**I know it's an EFA, but I wanted a specific categorization for CLA.

[Terumo]

Sorry for the delay--I was at a conference this weekend, and I didn't have WiFi.

Originally Posted by Madmick

Terumo,

You wouldn't put caffeine in the DEFINITELY USEFUL category? Why not?

In short, because it isn't. If you look at my pyramid, the only things that are listed as DEFINITELY USEFUL are food (and creatine, for what should be obvious reasons). PWO Drink = Protein and carbs. Protein. Essential fats. Not everyone has a place for caffeine in their program.

Also, I'm assuming you put Multi-Vitamins only in the POSSIBLY USEFUL category because certain vitamins and minerals aren't absorbed as well from supplement sources as food sources (i.e. heme-iron)? And what do you think of time-released vs. standard formulas? What about liquid for tablet form?

Multiples are good ways to help combat obscene deficiencies, but as you said, bioavailablity of multiple vitamins is just not very good. That is why I recommend a very simple formula as a multiple--cheap and efficient. People think that they are going to get much better absorption and efficiency out of taking vitamins three or four times per day, but it just doesn't work that way. With food, it does. However, throwing a big conglomerate of micronutrients into a pill raises considerable issues with competitive inhibition, pH flux, and other things that tweak with one's ability to assimilate. Keep the multiples simple, people. I would probably opt for a timed-release, and maybe even an enteric-coated multi, if one is cheaply available. Liquid vs. pill? Forget it--I wouldn't turn around for the difference. The problem with multiple vitamins is not (despite what all liquid vitamin manufacturers will tell you) physically breaking down the pill. Unless you eat Prevacids like they are candy, or you are buying some horrible brand with no shelf-life, the stomach will turn that pill into a nice liquid form anyhow. The problem with a multiple is uptake and assimilation. I would rather see someone take greens powder than a multiple, but that is personal opinion (although an educated opinion--I'm not just pissing into the wind, here).

I'd really appreciate it if you rounded out your pyramid, Terumo. Would you categorize these by number, please? (if you don't know or haven't researched the supplement, just put that):

Sure thing.

1) Creatine Ethyl Esters (as opposed to monohydrate)

I would stick with monohydrate for no other reason that taste and cost effectiveness. CEE shows promise as far as assimilation is concerned, but not a degree of efficiency. POSSIBLY USEFUL.

2) Green Tea & Green Tea Extract (w/Standardized Catechins)

This falls into the additional antioxidant category. There are some tie-ins to EGCG and leptin, but those are somewhat unfounded. EGCG tie-ins to cAMP re-uptake show a bit more promise. If you want an extra antioxidant, choose vitamin C. After that, choose green tea, standardized for EGCG. A very strong POSSIBLY USEFUL

3) Taurine

I consider this getting a bit tricky. There are better ways to manipulate insulin levels. I just feel that you there are probably ten other supplements that should get billing before taurine. However, if you are making a custom PWO drink, or if you have one that already contains this stuff, go ahead. But for the most part, WASTE OF TIME.

4) CLA**

CLA isn't actually an essential fat. In fact, it is the only trans fatty acid that has shown to be healthful. It works, to a degree, but that is assuming you are dealing with the appropriate isomers. Honestly, technology isn't quite sophisticated to the point that we can have a proper blend of the isomers. The Tonalin line seems to be doing the most to ensure isomeric purity. If you use it, go with that. However, I just don't want to take ten supplements, and I feel the same holds true for CLA as does taurine. Plus, the minimum dosage of CLA that was used for the majority of per os studies is 12 grams. That's much, much more than most manufacturers recommend because, well, they know that no one would pay for that. For me, WASTE OF TIME. For others (particularly those with more money than me), maybe.

5) Ginseng

Whatever. My favorite use for ginseng is for a cancer therapeutic! There are actually several studies that show ginseng as being a potent anti-****static for colorectal carcinomas. As far as a sports supplement, if it gives you energy, go ahead. I'll stick with caffeine. WASTE OF TIME.

6) L-Carnitine & Acetyl-L-Carnitine

I don't really know what to say here other than almost everyone using this stuff as a lipolytic aid doesn't use enough. That is kind of the same thing with CLA. Show potential, but it is greatly misused. A very weak POSSIBLY USEFUL.

7) Ephedrine HCL

Yes sir. There are so many studies that directly relate adrenergic agonists to amped up cAMP, leptin secretion, and overall net adipose mobilization. This is supplement with which you have to be careful and knowledgable of any pre-dispositions or sensitivities. When used responsibly, this is a strong POSSIBLY USEFUL for those looking to drop fat.

8) Synephrine HCL

WASTE OF TIME. Mildly thermogenic. Possibly hinders cAMP utilization. Fairly potent emetic. Synephrine was the posterchild for replacing ephedrine in weight loss products after the ban. It doesn't even belong this close to ephedrine in the list, but I don't feel like copy-pasting it to another location.

9) Yohimbine HCL

WASTE OF TIME, unless it is pharmaceutical grade, and not a proprietary botanical extract. It competitively binds to PDE-5r, making it a good pro-erectile for some. Testosterone booster? Forget it. As for TwinLab's product, do not think for a second that it really has 8mg of active yohimbine. If it did, they'd rename it Boner Fuel.

10) Fo-Ti

Very little research has been done of fo-ti outside of the realms of Eastern medicine, whose methods are very non-quantitative. Might work, might not. I recommend Viagra. I will not pass any judgment on this product until more information has been collected.

11) MCT' Oil and MCT-based powders (i.e. Muscle Milk)

Great way to boost caloric intake without creating a huge risk for lipogenesis. They won't turn you into Superman, as some MCT manufacturers attest; however, they are sometimes a magic bullet for hardgainers to get some added clean kCal. POSSIBLY USEFUL.

12) Evening Primrose Oil

Good source of GLA, which has many promising benefits, especially in expectant mothers. For an athlete, if you need to choose between an w6 supplement and an w3 supplement, always choose the w3. However, EPO shows potential, and I can't say anything negative about it. POSSIBLY USEFUL.

13) Colostrum

The human body has not the assimilative capacity for orally administered immunoglobulins and other immunity factors that it did in infancy. Colostrum is, essentially, an overglorified whole protein. WASTE OF TIME (money).

14) HMB

Absolute fucking WASTE OF TIME. Study after study demonstrates HMB to be ineffective at slowing muscle wasting in everything but sedentary or bed-ridden adults.

15) Sylimarin (Milk Thistle Extract)

May aid in protecting against hepatotoxicity. May serve as a potent antioxidant. POSSIBLY USEFUL.

16) Echinacea

Personal experience--good stuff; seems to help. Scientific evidence? Not a lot. There is a better case for beta-glucan as a pro-immune. However, I cannot shun echinacea's usefulness. I won't rate it.

17) Chamomile/Tea

Chamomile--no effective use in sports nutrition. Other teas? White, green, and some blacks are (in descending order) most antioxidative. I only drink five things: water, milk, protein shakes, alcohol, and green/white tea.

18) Sesamin

Well, it seems to induce tumor necroses in rats! It is a lignan, which seems to trigger fat emulsion in a test tube. I guess we can call it promising, but for now that is all. At the moment, WASTE OF TIME.

19) Bromelain

Good anti-inflammatory option for those avoiding NSAIDS. For that reason alone, it is decent. Unfortunately, it isn't quite good enough for me to group it with things like ZMA and greens powders. I'll stick it just below POSSIBLY USEFUL.

20) Bee Pollen

Raw, local honey will do far more for immunoglobulin activation than will processed bee pollen. WASTE OF TIME, and so is royal jelly.

21) Saw Palmetto

The dose required to bind DHT is simply huge. If you are willing to take three grams a day, it is selectively useful.



Hope this was helpful.



Edited to fix many grammatical mistakes.

[Madmick]

Awesome, thanks Terumo.

BTW, what are neurotransmitters? I don't recognize that, maybe it's something I know by an unfamiliar alias?

[Rjkd12]

Awesome post man, that must have taken a lot of time to compile. For someone who is so busy with school it is real nice that you take the time.