[MikeMartial]

Chime in here, Vedic. I see you lurking.

[takeahnase]

Originally Posted by MikeMartial

Monger linked some solid stuff.

What you're describing is classic overtaining, as you probably know. If it's temporary, and always after your max heavy compound lifts, I'd guess CNS burnout, also.

I'm going to assume your PWO and regular nutrition is spot on. Increasing overall fat intake wouldn't hurt in the least, though. And I'm going to assume your taking in at least 3g of combined EPA/DHA. How many grams of carbs are you taking in PWO, and total daily?

What do your preWO stimulants look like? Type and dose?

Are you taking in ZMA? ZMA+Gaba is a great nightime stack, and with GABA being an inhibitory neurotransmitter, it may very well help with an over-taxed CNS. Plus, it'll help you sleep. Monger has had some success with taking PS (Phosphatidyl Serine) at night to reduce cortisol---which goes bananas during overtraining. PS and PC (choline) are found in lecithin, which is why I recommended it in the post in the Pub.

I take ZMA at 450/30mg.

I work out in the early mornings, so my shake covers pre-/peri- and post workout and contains around 150-200g of carbs ( 10/4/2 malto/dex/fruc). Total daily carbs is probably another 200g (veg, some fruit, red rice) on workout days.

I used to take around 3g EPA/DHA and recently bumped this to 4.5g.

In terms of stimulants I take 200mg caff if I feel a little tired, if the sun is up I usually take nothing.

I feel that increasing saturated fats helps, but maybe its only because I eat more total calories if I splurge on meat.

Cortisol control is probably one of the things I really have to think about, because the symptoms arise much quicker if work is stressful, even if I get sufficient rest.

[MikeMartial]

Originally Posted by takeahnase

Cortisol control is probably one of the things I really have to think about, because the symptoms arise much quicker if work is stressful, even if I get sufficient rest.

Everything seems solid, so I'd guess cortisol, too. If this is a regular pattern, I'd suggest:

• Increasing fat intake
• PWO do contrast showers; cycle 2 minutes hot, 1 minute cold. The temp difference between hot/cold is the key. End on a cold cycle.
• Schedule in active recovery after a heavy lifting day. This could be anything from light high-ish rep lifting in a full ROM (just to break a sweat---not metcon) to LSD work.
• Try adding GABA to your ZMA. I get mine at Bulk Nutrition
• Without a doubt, add phospholipids. There's packaged cortisol blockers, but they can be pricey. Greens+ has a plethora of benefits, and lecithin is totally dirt cheap.

Speaking of active recovery, my mountain bike and a single-track trail are screaming my name. Keep us updated on how things go, Take.

[takeahnase]

Thanks, I will try all of this. But are you serious about the 1 minute cold? Any short cuts for that one, I'm a wuss?

[theNuge]

I love your posts, Mike. I feel like I'm reading a position paper.

On a side note, you seem to be on a bullet kick as of late.

[Monger]

That's a truck load of carbs, man. At least that's probably not the problem for your burnout. Increasing fats and total calories could possibly help but only if you’re not getting adequate amounts now.

I linked those threads and neglected to give any specifics because when it comes to nootropics and sleep aids, a lot seems to be up to experimentation. Meaning that a lot of people don't have the same reaction and what works well for one may not work well for another. The stuff Mike mentioned is great and taking PS on your max lift training days "might" help but probably only if you're training in the evening and at a fairly high volume.

If you're nutrition is spot on... I'd focus on experimenting with some sleep aids and using ZMA+Gaba would be a decent start, like Mike mentioned. If you can get a good nights sleep after your training... many of your issues might be solved.

After that, you could look into a few nootropics that may make you feel better after training. DMAE works well for some and I've used Power Drive before with some success. It's not really a stimulant; it just puts you in a better mood. A lot of people say that DMAE doesn’t do shit… so that’s where you might need to experiment with other stuff. This would not be to help with CNS recovery... just mask some symptoms.

If you nail down the nutrition and rest, the only other option I see is to lower the volume on your max lift days…

I'd also be curious to hear Vedic's opinion.

[Monger]

Originally Posted by MikeMartial

Everything seems solid, so I'd guess cortisol, too. If this is a regular pattern, I'd suggest:

• Increasing fat intake
• PWO do contrast showers; cycle 2 minutes hot, 1 minute cold. The temp difference between hot/cold is the key. End on a cold cycle.
• Schedule in active recovery after a heavy lifting day. This could be anything from light high-ish rep lifting in a full ROM (just to break a sweat---not metcon) to LSD work.
• Try adding GABA to your ZMA. I get mine at Bulk Nutrition
• Without a doubt, add phospholipids. There's packaged cortisol blockers, but they can be pricey. Greens+ has a plethora of benefits, and lecithin is totally dirt cheap.

Speaking of active recovery, my mountain bike and a single-track trail are screaming my name. Keep us updated on how things go, Take.

Great post, Mike. I forgot about the active recovery but that could help a lot.

[Vedic]

Originally Posted by Monger

That's a truck load of carbs, man. At least that's probably not the problem for your burnout. Increasing fats and total calories could possibly help but only if you’re not getting adequate amounts now.

I linked those threads and neglected to give any specifics because when it comes to nootropics and sleep aids, a lot seems to be up to experimentation. Meaning that a lot of people don't have the same reaction and what works well for one may not work well for another. The stuff Mike mentioned is great and taking PS on your max lift training days "might" help but probably only if you're training in the evening and at a fairly high volume.

If you're nutrition is spot on... I'd focus on experimenting with some sleep aids and using ZMA+Gaba would be a decent start, like Mike mentioned. If you can get a good nights sleep after your training... many of your issues might be solved.

After that, you could look into a few nootropics that may make you feel better after training. DMAE works well for some and I've used Power Drive before with some success. It's not really a stimulant; it just puts you in a better mood. A lot of people say that DMAE doesn’t do shit… so that’s where you might need to experiment with other stuff. This would not be to help with CNS recovery... just mask some symptoms.

If you nail down the nutrition and rest, the only other option I see is to lower the volume on your max lift days…

I'd also be curious to hear Vedic's opinion.

Well a lot of people have said what I will just repeat. However I think there are a few key steps to avoiding overtraining.

1. Sleep. Without a doubt other than nutrition, the most important, if not tied for first. * hours should be a minimum for heavy training times. Although I will say that I have done it on six hours and been ok, but over periods of time, I find to slow down. Make sue it is REM sleep. Pitch black rooms seem to help. melatonin and valerian root work well as sleep aids along with ZMA of course. On the experimental side I used a combo of Alpha-GPC, Arginine, and those herbs at night for a few months and it worked well. I used the same combo on two clients. Both reported improved sleep, and improved DOMS. To me DOMS, is indicative of sleep and recovery agents.


2. Nutrition. A voerload of carbs isn't going to prevent over training. Its just not warranted. First place i always look at someone with over training symptoms, is fat and protein intake. Carbs is the last place I look. overall I would say the least a active athlete should take is 100 grams of afat a day and up. Olive oil, almonds, etc etc. healthy ones for it. Protein, make sure you aren't a whey junkie, to where you are loosing the effectiveness of food digestion over time etc.

3. Supplements. Cortisol was mentioned. There are a number of things that can be used. We have tried a myrid of things in the past at different doses, I will list them, if you want more info just ask. Around workout times we used Vitamin C and Kava Kava with some success, we then used the same and added PS. It worked very well. ALC is one of my favorites, and it has been shown numerous times to help in neuro pathways, and it helps the prevention of dementia and other neuro diseases, which leads me to believe that there is promise to over all cognitive benefit, without the client ever really realizing the effect.

4. Contrasting showers, I like to warm up for a few minutes, get washed etc, then do it at the end. 30 seconds alternating for six minutes seems to work at the right amount for everyone I have used it on.

5. Foam rollers, massage therapy, and ART. I had a keg/hip area problem for quite some time due to overtraining, a few ART practices and it improved.

6. Yoga, active mobility training etc. Not to mention just lifestyle in general there are a ton of things to look at.

[takeahnase]

Thanks a lot. I would be interested in #3 particularly. If you could link me up with stuff to read that would be sufficient if you don't feel like typing everything out.

In terms of sleep, I will try to add GABA to ZMA and see how that goes - my sleep is already much better since taking ZMA and quitting alcohol.

[Vedic]

Let me find the notebook from that time period as it was about two years ago. But I have them all in my room. Look for it later tonight.