[King Kabuki]

I'm doing this thread at the same time as the herb thread because they both express a key point in supplement manufacturing. I was going to include this subject in with the information about herbs, but then decided it needs a whole other thread all on it's own. It needs it because a growing trend I see (even around this board) is everyone looking for cheap cheap cheap. What can I get that’s cheap? What’s the cheapest? I need to save money! What’s the best cheapest thing you have? Cheap cheap cheap cheap cheap. People, cheap is EXACTLY that, cheap. Don’t you have parents who explain this shit to you? You want good shit you may just actually have to spend some money. Not only that, but just with people I know in everyday life, the motherfuckers looking for the cheapest shit in such a hurry to save money are usually the most terrible money savers I know. They need cheap because they’re broke and suck at saving money. If you could learn to budget and save effectively the need for cheap shit would become obsolete.

This greed-factor is something that’s actually crippling the supplement Industry right now, and is one of the reasons for so much scrutiny as to what works and what doesn’t, what is reputable and what is not. Brand loyalty has been destroyed. And because of it the ones getting kicked in the ass over it are actually YOU, the consumers. Because now you have a WORLD of options of supplements, only about 10% of which are actually worth your consideration. But you don’t know that, because all you give a fuck about above all else is CHEAP. The overview of the whole herb thread here is that Companies are tricking you. They’re selling one thing and calling it something SIMILAR to it under the same name, but less costly and thus, less effective. And they’re making money because the profit margins are higher. Like the whole thing with Ephedra mentioned in that thread for instance, supplement retailers are now bringing in supplements that are less costly to them to carry as opposed to ones backed by science, and marketing schemes reflect that, as they’re based on one thing and one thing alone, beating competitor prices. This is smart money though, because these Companies are aware that the ONE thing consumers give a shit about above all else, CHEAP. So it works, you buy the cheap shit, they make more money without spending a lot of money, and all is well correct? Yes, that is, until people begin to understand there are better supplements out there, and a Company goes the way of Xyience. Nothing more than marketing.

I’ve said it before around here and I’ll say it again. There is NO magic, and it’s NO coincidence why cheaper brands of supplements are cheap. You can rest assured the raw materials these companies use in their products are of lesser quality than those used in not just more expensive products, but REPUTABLE products. Because of lack of regulation in the supplement industry, this buying practice by both consumers and retailers opens the door for a lot of these “me too” Companies to manufacture shit they’ve never once done so before, in the cheapest way possible, and sell it at discounted prices, knowing the large percent of dumb consumers will buy it. This is why Everlast, the gear company, has a line of fat-burners and bars.

So, the point here is make sure your “cheaper” shit is either of some kind of reputation, or that you know EXACTLY why it’s so cheap. I recall my mother saying something to me as a kid, what was it? Oh yes, “if it sounds too good to be true, chances are it IS too good to be true.” That has almost never been proven wrong in my experience. And as far as those of you who are buying supplements that ARE reputable for ridiculously low prices understand one thing about that. Again, there is no magic. Either you’re buying this shit from a Company who does not make it’s money selling it (I hate when people hassle me personally for discounts because the first thing cut when a Company accommodates a greedy public is usually payroll, and I gotta eat too you sumbitches), or you’re buying shit that’s about to expire, has been returned, are factory defects (showed up to a retailer in a damaged bottle or something, is re-packaged, and sold at wholesale cost), or the product is part of a loss-leader marketing scheme. Loss-leaders are when Companies (Vitamin Shoppe does this shit all the time), who sell a product with no profit, just to get you in their store to sell you other shit at full retail cost.

No one starts a Company with the idea of buying something for $5 and selling it for $4. That’s just not economically viable. So be wary, brand loyalty is actually the way to go. When you find a supplement that works, suits your every need, buy that supplement. The moment you go on a hunt for an identical supplement that is CHEAPER, you’re feeding the beast of the “me too” Companies whose products usually suck in the long-un and ruin the good names of the initial products you were buying. Take responsibility to effectively budget YOUR OWN money, so you can afford a supplement regimen that is of quality, from reputable brands, and will get you to your goals. Do this, and because of brand loyalty the Company, grateful for your support, might actually end up taking care of you in many ways (promotions, coupons, etc.)

[fat_wilhelm]

Originally Posted by King Kabuki

And as far as those of you who are buying supplements that ARE reputable for ridiculously low prices understand one thing about that. Again, there is no magic. Either you’re buying this shit from a Company who does not make it’s money selling it (I hate when people hassle me personally for discounts because the first thing cut when a Company accommodates a greedy public is usually payroll, and I gotta eat to you sumbitches), or you’re buying shit that’s about to expire, has been returned, are factory defects (showed up to a retailer in a damaged bottle or something, is re-packaged, and sold at wholesale cost), or the product is part of a loss-leader marketing scheme. Loss-leaders are when Companies (Vitamin Shoppe does this shit all the time), who sell a product with no profit, just to get you in their store to sell you other shit at full retail cost.

Or it could have something to do with the fact that the business models of those companies selling products for “cheap” don’t include the overhead cost of opening a physical store in every mall across America, hiring employees to work at those stores, covering theft/loss prevention, etc.

The can of NO-Xplode I bought online three months ago cost me $30.95 + 5.95 shipping (regular price), and the expiration date on it is 10/07. The regular price of this product at GNC is $62.99 + tax, sale price of $44.09 + tax. Or how about Muscle Milk? That seems to be a popular product these days. $18 vs $45 -- which would you choose?

I agree with your points about the cost differences between different products where large variance in quality is a fact of the supplement industry. I don’t agree with the “you get what you pay for” theory as it applies to buying the same products online for less, however. That’s just smart shopping. I’m sure there are incidents where products are expired, flawed, etc., but I’ve never run into any. I figure the fact that I buy from a vendor who has two stores and one person [inconsistently] answering phones explains their low prices a little bit better.

On a side note, I don’t shop online because I’m cheap and have a hard time budgeting and saving money. Quite the opposite is true. In fact, I like to think that my financial situation is, in part, a byproduct of common sense in spending.

[King Kabuki]

The can of NO-Xplode I bought online three months ago cost me $30.95 + 5.95 shipping (regular price), and the expiration date on it is 10/07. The regular price of this product at GNC is $62.99 + tax, sale price of $44.09 + tax. Or how about Muscle Milk? That seems to be a popular product these days. $18 vs $45 -- which would you choose?

1) GNC does not charge tax.

2) I didn't say anything about the online companies ALL being ill-intended. I said for people buying from them to be careful, there's a huge difference, and an exception to every rule.

I agree with your points about the cost differences between different products where large variance in quality is a fact of the supplement industry. I don’t agree with the “you get what you pay for” theory as it applies to buying the same products online for less, however. That’s just smart shopping. I’m sure there are incidents where products are expired, flawed, etc., but I’ve never run into any. I figure the fact that I buy from a vendor who has two stores and one person [inconsistently] answering phones explains their low prices a little bit better.

This would be the exception to the rule, of course. However, to give you an idea of what is smart shopping, as opposed to smart businesses catering to not-as-smart-as-they-think customers:

A tub of Muscle Milk retails for $41.99 (no tax). Right now they are on buy one get one half-price. Which means two tubs are $62.99. During the Gold Card week Gold Card GNC customers got 20% off, which knocks it down to $50.39. Divide that by two and you have $25.19 per tub. Not a HUGE difference than $18, plus shipping, and if that Company is charging tax they're cheating, there's no tax on such items.

In terms of the No-Xplode, the sale price is $44.09, save for on Gold Card week when Gold Card customers get an additional 20% off. Then the price comes down to $32.79.

Sounds like a lot of work to get these prices when I type it out. But in-reality, all it takes for the customer, show up, with the Gold Card, during the first week of the month.

But you're right about the overhead. It's the difference between having a store and selling shit out of your garage...which does cost money.

[fat_wilhelm]

Oh yeah -- I forgot about the supplements-as-groceries-no-tax-thing. My bad.

You're right, for Gold Card members (I'm not one) it can work out OK. Also, for those that don't know what they're looking for or have questions to ask, it IS nice to have an actual person to talk to. Not knowing a ton about joint supplementation, I went into my local GNC two weeks ago and started asking some questions. The guy there was extremely knowledeable and could answer every question I threw at him, and I could tell he wasn't B.S.ing his way through it. I ended up taking advantage of the Buy one, get one 1/2 off on Triflex.

I'm certainly not opposed to actual physical shopping when I'm not sure what I'm looking for, but when you've already been through the trial and error period and know exactly what you want, and you can find it for a good price, it's nice to sit back on the couch, open up a browser window and click in your order.

Nice essay on herbs, by the way.

[King Kabuki]

Thanks. And I think Internet shopping has it's place. If retailers were smart they'd be working WITH these Internet Companies via cross-promotional coupons. Like buy a tub of Muscle Milk at blah blah.com, get a coupon for $5 off GNC Mega Men vitamin or something of-the-like. But right now there's no real central consolidation in the Industry and everyone's just trying to kill each other.

[supersudo]

great post... i'm sometimes guilty of going the cheap route.. but i always consult teh great wisdom of teh sherdog forums before i shell out teh cash... thx kabuki

[Rjkd12]

Cheap is sometimes ok. I mean, you kinda are saying (loosely) buy expensive. That isn't always the case. There was an diet pill, I forget the name, the main ingredient was 200 mg of caffeine (little yellow pills with a line down the middle widthwise for easy splitting, blue bottle). I can get generic caffeine for MUCH cheaper with much less marketing. Most people here think its better to buy caffeine, aspirin and ephedra seperate and make your own ECA rather than buy an expensive premade one.

I mean, going to the store and picking up the cheapest supplelement is stupid, and so is getting the most expensive one. Do your research, find out whats in them and the quality, and then buy the least expensive of the ones offering that.

Also, sometimes it isn't worth it to spend 2x as much for a 5% better product. You have to admit many times when buying things you are paying for the name. Just be smart.

[Grady]

Originally Posted by Rjkd12

Cheap is sometimes ok. I mean, you kinda are saying (loosely) buy expensive. That isn't always the case. There was an diet pill, I forget the name, the main ingredient was 200 mg of caffeine (little yellow pills with a line down the middle widthwise for easy splitting, blue bottle). I can get generic caffeine for MUCH cheaper with much less marketing. Most people here think its better to buy caffeine, aspirin and ephedra seperate and make your own ECA rather than buy an expensive premade one.

I mean, going to the store and picking up the cheapest supplelement is stupid, and so is getting the most expensive one. Do your research, find out whats in them and the quality, and then buy the least expensive of the ones offering that.

Also, sometimes it isn't worth it to spend 2x as much for a 5% better product. You have to admit many times when buying things you are paying for the name. Just be smart.

This is true. I was looking into prices for ECA products online, and then just figured if I bought some high quality pharm-grade ephidrine, baby asprin, and took that with my coffee, I'd shell out less than $20 (compared to $65 or more in some cases).

Also - Xyience = EXPENSIVE

[King Kabuki]

Cheap is sometimes ok. I mean, you kinda are saying (loosely) buy expensive. That isn't always the case. There was an diet pill, I forget the name, the main ingredient was 200 mg of caffeine (little yellow pills with a line down the middle widthwise for easy splitting, blue bottle). I can get generic caffeine for MUCH cheaper with much less marketing. Most people here think its better to buy caffeine, aspirin and ephedra seperate and make your own ECA rather than buy an expensive premade one.

I'm saying buy quality, even if it means a little more money than CHEAP. Fizogen is about the most expensive line there is, and they make good shit normally, but there is NO reason to pay $90 for a bottle of Lean Tabs.

Also - Xyience = EXPENSIVE

For what they're marketed to do, not really. They attempt to make themselves sound in competition with companies like Fizogen, Cellucore, and MRI. Which are more expensive in-general than Xyience. But even still, I was referencing them about their quality moreso than their pricing, though I should have distinguished that. I used them as a reference that the general concensus is they suck, regardless of their marketing ploys.

[Boondocksaint]

I'll admit it...when money is tight...I get all about those active ingredients.