Do you care about Your health / Natural health products / Supplements ?

[Chad Hamilton]

Originally Posted by GunsforGuevara

Cory_Pilfold, after reading some of the C-51 bill, I gotta say I don't find too much wrong with it. In fact it could clean up some of these bullshit "natural health" stores...

And quite frankly, It seems that the only people really concerned about this bill are the supplement manufacturers and alternative medicine vendors that sell questionable products and services.

Those bullshit "natural health" stores? Sir, those stores are highly regarded around here and I don't think many here think of them as bullshit.

And quite frankly, supplement manufacturers and alternative medicine vendors can sell whatever they want to here, maybe not China, but they can here in the United States.

Which is the point, you can buy or sell whatever the fuck you want to in this country, at least for the time being. I don't need big money telling me what to put in my body. I'm thoroughly educated enough to do that for myself, and if need be, my loved ones.

The TS's point, I think, is to inform everyone that you may not have the right to buy what YOU think is best for you. Scary to think of that option being taken away.

[Cory_Pilfold]

Originally Posted by GunsforGuevara

Cory_Pilfold, after reading some of the C-51 bill, I gotta say I don't find too much wrong with it. In fact it could clean up some of these bullshit "natural health" stores...

For example the part of prohibiting food/therapeutic products: C-51



I fail to see the part where it says 60-80% of supplements will be banned. What I see is the placement of accountability on part of the supplement/herbal manufacturers. Something that is missing in industry. Furthermore, if it keeps places like this: Preventing AIDS - curing aids - HIV+, How to cure Aids ? HIV+,How to Prevent aids? away from the public. I see no problem with that.

And quite frankly, It seems that the only people really concerned about this bill are the supplement manufacturers and alternative medicine vendors that sell questionable products and services.

good job using wikipedia to get your information, Funny seeing as this is exactly what the government is trying to get us to believe in regards to this law. When it is a bold faced lie.

The Official Stop C-51 Website - Your Freedom And Health Are At Risk!

Or go to google and type in bill c-51 dangers..Infact, Look up anything beyond wikipedia and you will find some pretty sick things about it. Including Natural health products / supplements / vitamins being criminalized to the same extent that crack and heroin is.


People like you are the reason that these people get away with what they are doing, uneducated and think they know. When In reality, They have no clue what is being cooked up in regards to their lives..Please, Look beyond wikipedia for your information..there is some very scary facts about this bill that you obviously are unaware about.


This bill has everything to do with codex alimentarius..

I suggest you educate yourself my friend.

Originally Posted by Chad Hamilton

Those bullshit "natural health" stores? Sir, those stores are highly regarded around here and I don't think many here think of them as bullshit.

And quite frankly, supplement manufacturers and alternative medicine vendors can sell whatever they want to here, maybe not China, but they can here in the United States.

Which is the point, you can buy or sell whatever the fuck you want to in this country, at least for the time being. I don't need big money telling me what to put in my body. I'm thoroughly educated enough to do that for myself, and if need be, my loved ones.

The TS's point, I think, is to inform everyone that you may not have the right to buy what YOU think is best for you. Scary to think of that option being taken away.

It's his choice whether he wants to be ignorant or not, But like you said..It's scary to think what might happen if our freedom and rights to stay healthy were taken away..in the manner they are right now.

IMO and many other peoples opinion..A lot of government information being released about this bill that has little to no truth in it, in regards to what is actually being planned.


The Official Stop C-51 Website - Your Freedom And Health Are At Risk!

read everything on this website and tell me you are all for this bill..( not you chad)


I think the fact that people are actually for this bill, show how much control the government has over majority of the population. In the eyes of majority of americans and Canadians, If the government says it..It must be true, No matter how much information and proof there is tthat says other wise.

I do however, think that is changing..and will continue to change. People are becoming more aware, and It is our job as citizens to make sure that people are truly aware of what is going on behind closed curtains.

If liberty means anything, It means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.

[GunsforGuevara]

Chad, I gotta disagree with you here. What the Canadian bill C-51 is meant to do is regulate an unregulated industry. The companies that sell vitamins and protien won't run into problems unless they sell false/misleading products. Case in point, THE NO(nitric oxide SCAM

Here's an interesting take on the so called "Health Freedom" (quackwatch.com) you believe in:

"Health Freedom"

William T. Jarvis, Ph.D.

Stephen Barrett, M.D.

If quacks can't win by playing according to the rules, they try to change them by switching from the scientific to the political arena. In science, a medical claim is treated as false until proven beyond a reasonable doubt. But in politics, a medical claim may be accepted until proven false or harmful. This is why proponents of laetrile, chiropractic, orthomolecular psychiatry, chelation therapy and the like, take their case to legislators rather than scientific groups.

Quacks use the concept of "health freedom" to divert attention away from themselves and toward victims of disease with whom we are naturally sympathetic. "These poor folks should have the freedom to choose whatever treatments they want," cry the quacks -- with crocodile tears. They want us to overlook two things. First, no one wants to be cheated, especially in matters of life and health. Victims of disease do not demand quack treatments because they want to exercise their "rights," but because they have been deceived into thinking that they offer hope. Second, the laws against worthless nostrums are not directed against the victims of disease but at the promoters who attempt to exploit them.
Any threat to freedom strikes deeply into American cultural values. But we must also realize that complete freedom is appropriate only in a society in which everyone is perfectly trustworthy -- and no such society exists. Experience has taught us that quackery can even lead people to poison themselves, their children and their friends.

Consumer protection laws have been passed to protect desperately ill people who are vulnerable. These laws simply require that products and services offered in the health marketplace be both safe and effective. If only safety were required, any produce or service that would not kill you on the spot could be hawked to the gullible. To weaken protection, quackery's proponents seek laws to shield their activities and force insurance companies to pay for them.

Some people claim we have too much government regulation. But the issue should be one of quality not quantity. Good regulatory laws are very important. Our opposition should be to bad regulations that stifle our economy or cramp our lifestyles unnecessarily. Consumer protection laws should be preserved.

Unfortunately, some politicians seem oblivious to these basic principles and expound the "health freedom" concept as though they are doing their constituents a favor. In reality, "health freedom" constitutes a hunting license for quackery, with open season declared on the sick, the frightened, the alienated, and the desperate. It represents a return to the law of the jungle in which the strong feed upon the weak.

[GunsforGuevara]

Originally Posted by Cory_Pilfold

good job using wikipedia to get your information, Funny seeing as this is exactly what the government is trying to get us to believe in regards to this law. When it is a bold faced lie.

The Official Stop C-51 Website - Your Freedom And Health Are At Risk!

Or go to google and type in bill c-51 dangers..Infact, Look up anything beyond wikipedia and you will find some pretty sick things about it. Including Natural health products / supplements / vitamins being criminalized to the same extent that crack and heroin is.

First of all, I used the links you posted on the thread. The 'Stop C-51' website had a link to the bill. I used quotes from that bill (post #30) and so far in reading it I have yet to find the part where it says that health products will become the new heroin.

Where are you getting these doomsday ideas of yours? Find me the direct article in the C-51 bill. Link is here ==> C-51

[Cory_Pilfold]

Originally Posted by GunsforGuevara

First of all, I used the links you posted on the thread. The 'Stop C-51' website had a link to the bill. I used quotes from that bill (post #30) and so far in reading it I have yet to find the part where it says that health products will become the new heroin.

Where are you getting these doomsday ideas of yours? Find me the direct article in the C-51 bill. Link is here ==> C-51

Sorry, But you seem to me to be the type of person that believes whatever he reads..even if it's the only resource he has uncovered. Read this

Eliminates the Ability of our Elected Officials to Protect Us
Section 30(7) of Bill C-51

1. Bypassing our elected official’s ability to vote out laws that are not the will of, or in the interest of the Canadian people.
2. Allows government agents, (not elected officials) to create binding laws behind closed doors.
3. New powers will allow enforcement of these laws by the searching and seizing of private property and bank accounts without warrants.

All of this based off a bill that claims to simply want to regulate health products? Theres no way that a law like this could hold up in court..However, Seizing your bank account and "private property" which could mean anything..would limit your ability to protect yourself in court, If at all..and it would give a large amount of power to unelected officials.

Keep reading



Fast Tracks New Drugs to Market; Reduced Safety Measures

1. By shortening the approval process for new drugs.( regardless of the danger)
2. By placing the responsibility of safety on drug companies with a proven track record of downplaying the health risks and side effects.

Increased numbers of adverse drug reactions will lead to an increase in malpractice and personal law suits against doctors who prescribe new drugs which have not been tested properly for health and safety risks.

Wow..


Makes Upwards of 70% of Natural Health Products illegal

1. At the current rate of licensing failure, more than 70% of natural health products will be illegal.
2. Broad definitions will allow government agents to invoke enforcement on people who do as little as share a “therapeutic product” with a friend. Garlic and many other foods are therapeutic products.


This means that If i so much as use, or share a natural health product..that I could have my house searched without a warrent, bank acount seized, "private property seized" which could mean anything from garlic to dandylion greens. On top of that..I could face risks of up to 5 million dollars, or a two year jail sentence..all over an unregulated natural health product? It seems like a little too much.. You know what this is called? dictatorship, open up your eyes.

Not “one” person has ever died in Canada because of a Natural Health Product.

Bill C-51 is not about Canadian Safety

Bill C-51 is about Big Pharma


Bill C-51 will allow binding laws to be created in secret

In Canada the law making process takes place in a public forum with our elected officials voting for or against them. They are held accountable to the public for their decisions. If Bill C-51 passes, it will allow laws to be created behind closed doors, by government agents who may not have our best interests in mind.

DO YOU REALLY THINK THEY HAVE OUR BEST INTERESTS IN MIND?

[Cory_Pilfold]

The Move to the term “Therapeutic Products”
Bill C-51 moves away from the use of the term “drug” and introduces the term
“therapeutic products”. Indeed even the name of the “Food and Drugs Act” will
be changed to “An Act respecting foods, therapeutic products and cosmetics.”
The definition of “drug” remains unchanged but a new definition of “therapeutic
product” is added which includes drugs, medical devices and cells, tissues or
organs. However, the term “drug” is replaced throughout the old Food and Drugs
Act with the term “therapeutic products”.
Natural Health Products remain “drugs” under the Act. The only change is that
now all drugs are referred to as “therapeutic products” in the Act instead of as
drugs.
I have found this to be a very interesting change, and perhaps the most significant
of all of the changes.

The change certainly affects the dynamics of the debate over regulating NHPs as
foods or as a third category separate from drugs. Let’s use the NHPPA’s position
on regulatory change as an example. The NHPPA Advisory Board has given the
NHPPA the goal of obtaining a regulatory environment where:
(1) NHPs are presumed to be safe. A NHP cannot be taken off of the
market unless the Government can prove that it is unsafe;
(2) there are different claims structures so that:
a) manufacturers do not have to make claims;
b) manufacturers can make limited claims, such as structure function
claims with a low evidence threshold, and
c) manufacturers can make specific health claims if they can meet a
higher evidence threshold;
(3) NHPs are not regulated as drugs. They are either regulated as food or as
a third category separate from drugs and food;
(4) there are Good Manufacturing Processes that are appropriate for the low
risk profile of NHPs, and
(5) there is a conflict resolution mechanism to settle disputes between the
Government and industry members.
The last time consumers and the industry rebelled against Health Canada
enforcement actions against NHPs, the rallying cry was “don’t treat our foods as
drugs”. That rallying cry created the most successful petition drive in Canadian
history. It was a large factor leading then Minister of Health Allan Rock to refer
the issue to the Standing Committee on Health. The result was the 53
Recommendations which the industry would still like to see implemented.
Would the rallying cry have been successful with the new term: “don’t treat our
foods as therapeutic products”? Or to be more accurate: “don’t treat or natural
health products as therapeutic products”?
My point in all of this is simply to communicate that terms and language are
important as they determine the parameters of how we think and can affect debate.
The change in terms is being introduced deliberately by Health Canada and we
need to consider what the implications for the industry are.

Introduction of the term “Controlled Activity”
The Bill creates the following term:
“’controlled activity’ means
(a) in relation to a therapeutic product manufacturing, collecting,
processing, preserving, labelling, packaging, importing for sale,
distributing, wholesaling or testing, and
(b) in relation to a designated therapeutic product manufacturing
collecting, processing, preserving, labelling, packaging, importing,
distributing or testing.
My initial thoughts on the introduction of this term is that it is again directed at
natural health practitioners such as naturopathic and homeopathic doctors.
The Bill introduces the following section:
“13. No person shall conduct a controlled activity unless they are
authorized by an establishment license to do so.”
The change from our current regulatory scheme is the expansion of the site licence
requirements. Section 27 of the Natural Health Products Regulations does not
include: collecting, processing, preserving. Section 27 already includes
manufacturing. By adding processing and preserving Health Canada is targeting
something other than manufacturing.
Allowing Trade Agreements to become law without
Parliamentary Approval – and the Sharing of
Confidential Information with Foreign Governments
and Agencies.
The following term is added to the Act:
“’government’ means any of the following or their institutions, as
applicable:
(a) the federal government;
(b) a corporation named in Schedule III to 10 of the Financial
Administration Act,

[Cory_Pilfold]

seize and detain for any time anything connected to the Act and
Regulations, such as your products and equipment. This is a significant
change. Currently, an inspector can only seize if he/she “believes on
NHPPA Draft Discussion Paper
reasonable grounds” the article is connected to a violation of the Act or
Regulations. Now an inspector can seize all of your property without
the pre-condition that he/she believes it is connected to a violation of
the Act.


The addition of “for any time” is also a change. Previously articles could
only be held for such time “as may be necessary” and in connection with a
violation. So for example, if your property was seized for a labelling
problem and you printed correct labels, the property should be released.
Now the property can be held for any time and for any reason. This raises a
question as to why such new broad and sweeping seizure powers are
necessary?
Keep in mind that Health Canada always has access to the search warrant
provisions found in the Criminal Code. These provisions have been used
by Health Canada and seem to work adequately for other federal regulatory
bodies. What is going to occur that requires seizure without a warrant,
without any reason, without reporting back to a Court or Justice, and
without any time constraints?
 enter on and pass through or over private property without any liability and
without the owner of the property having the right to object;
 charge the owner for storage of seized property. Now not only can Health
Canada seize property for any length of time, but the new s. 23.3 gives
them the right to charge you for the moving and storage. I am aware of
one company that has had product seized for 5 years. Under this new
provision they would be liable for ongoing storage costs. This is
unprecedented. Usually the government can only seize private property for
violations and it is very unusual for their to be fees for the storage of what
is then considered to be evidence;
 if inspectors believe on reasonable grounds the seized property could be
injurious to human health they can dispose of it at the expense of the
owner or direct the owner to dispose of it. Currently inspectors have to
either obtain the owner’s consent or apply to a Court to have product
destroyed. This protects the property owner by ensuring that an impartial
Judge will make the decision. It is difficult to understand why it is in
anyone’s interest to take away the current safeguards;
 property is immediately forfeited after 60 days unless an owner is
identified. No application to a Court is necessary. I find this interesting as
I was involved in a case in which product was seized but for prosecution purposes Health Canada was going to have difficulty proving ownership.
Now if in doubt Health Canada can simply seize enough of your property
that you will go bankrupt if you do not claim it and hence solve the proof of
ownership issue. It is highly unusual for their to be forfeiture without a
Court order. The costs of destruction can be charged to the owner or
person entitled to possession

Inspectors are given apparently unlimited powers to
direct your actions and do “anything” for even the
slightest suspected violation of the Act or Regulations

[Cory_Pilfold]

There are two types of offences under the Act: indictable offences and summary
conviction offences. Indictable offences are considered more serious than
summary conviction offences.
The current penalties are:
 for summary conviction offences a fine of up to $500 and/or imprisonment
of up to 3 months for a first offence, and a fine of up to $1,000 and/or up to
6 months incarceration for subsequent offences, and
 for indictable offences a fine of up to $5,000 and/or imprisonment for up to
3 years.
The new penalties are:
 for summary conviction offences a fine of up to $250,000 and/or
imprisonment of up to 6 months for a first offence, and a fine of up to
$500,000 and/or up to 18 months of incarceration for subsequent offences,
and
 For indictable offences a fine of up to $5,000,000 and/or imprisonment of
up to 2 years.
This is not a doubling or tripling of fines. In the case of indictable offences the
fine is increased by a multiple of 1000 times. In the case of summary conviction
offences the fine is increased by a multiple of 500 times.
This raises the question as to why it is necessary to raise the primary penalty
by multiples of 500 and 1000. This is probably unprecedented in Canadian
history.



Please note that in all of my years defending companies in Court, I have never
seen Health Canada charge only one offence. In one case there were 73
charges. Under ten would be an exception. So when considering whether a
company could survive sentencing, do not calculate a single fine for a single
offence. Rather assume multiple fines for multiple offences.
These are penalties that few manufacturers or natural health practitioners could
survive. Small and medium manufacturers along with natural health
practitioners now face bankruptcy for violations of the Act or Regulations.
Directors and officers of corporations are now also personally responsible for
violations of the Act and Regulations and so are also facing personal
bankruptcy if there is any violation of the Act or Regulations.
Need for input
This draft document is admittedly only a cursory consideration of Bill C-51.
However, because the Bill presents significant changes that may be extremely
damaging to the NHP industry, we felt that it was necessary to prepare an initial
discussion document to get the various stakeholders aware of the issues presented
by the Bill.
It is essential that stakeholders and stakeholder groups take the time to examine
Bill C-51 and to draw their own conclusions.




Bill C-51 Will:
Allow Government agents to:
-Enter private property without a warrant Section 23 (4)
-Confiscate your property at their discretion, at your cost Section 23.3 a
-Dispose of your property at their discretion, at your cost Section 23.3 c
-Seize your bank accounts without a warrant Section 23 (2) (d)
-Charge you for shipping and storage of your property Section 23.3a-b
-Store your property Indefinitely without paying you for damages Section 23 (2) (d)
-Levy fines of up to $5,000,000.00 / 2 years in jail per offence. Section 31.1

Introduce new legislation that will:
-Allow laws to be created in Canada, behind closed doors, with the assistance of foreign governments, industrial and trade organizations Section 30.7
-Allow "Crack house style" of enforcement on natural health providers Section 23.1
-Allow enforcement to be considered on more than 70% of Canadians who use NHP's Health Canada Reference
-Allow the minister, based on opinion, to shut down research without any scientific reason or evidence of risk or harm Section 18.5
-Allow the minister, based on opinion, to allow or disallow market authorizations for Natural Health Products Section 18.7 (1)

[GunsforGuevara]

Originally Posted by Cory_Pilfold

Sorry, But you seem to me to be the type of person that believes whatever he reads..even if it's the only resource he has uncovered. Read this

Eliminates the Ability of our Elected Officials to Protect Us
Section 30(7) of Bill C-51

1. Bypassing our elected official’s ability to vote out laws that are not the will of, or in the interest of the Canadian people.
2. Allows government agents, (not elected officials) to create binding laws behind closed doors.
3. New powers will allow enforcement of these laws by the searching and seizing of private property and bank accounts without warrants.

All of this based off a bill that claims to simply want to regulate health products? Theres no way that a law like this could hold up in court..However, Seizing your bank account and "private property" which could mean anything..would limit your ability to protect yourself in court, If at all..and it would give a large amount of power to unelected officials.

Alright, I checked out Section 30(7) of Bill C-51 and all I got was this

Deeming

(7) For the purpose of a provision of this Act other than this section, a reference to regulations made under this Act is deemed to include authorizations and a reference to a regulation made under a specified provision of this Act is deemed to include a reference to the portion of an authorization containing a provision that may be contained in a regulation made under the specified provision.

Uhh... nothing about bypassing our elected officials. Now Section 31 of Bill C-51 deals with offenses which you talk about in your following posts. But what you omit to mention is that the bill is geared towards regulating the vendors and manufacturers of these so called 'health products' not the users. So as long as the vendors and manufacturers are selling legit products for legitimate purposes, everything is kosher. For example, selling garlic will not be banned. Garlic is a food. If you read section 5.1 to 7 on the bill you will see that as long as it's sold as food and not bottled in a shiny container by some company and advertised that it can cure cancer, there will be no problem.

[Cory_Pilfold]

Originally Posted by GunsforGuevara

Alright, I checked out Section 30(7) of Bill C-51 and all I got was this



Uhh... nothing about bypassing our elected officials. Now Section 31 of Bill C-51 deals with offenses which you talk about in your following posts. But what you omit to mention is that the bill is geared towards regulating the vendors and manufacturers of these so called 'health products' not the users. So as long as the vendors and manufacturers are selling legit products for legitimate purposes, everything is kosher. For example, selling garlic will not be banned. Garlic is a food. If you read section 5.1 to 7 on the bill you will see that as long as it's sold as food and not bottled in a shiny container by some company and advertised that it can cure cancer, there will be no problem.

wtf is wrong with you ? Everything that I just copy pasted was all from the stopc51.com site. and FROM the fucking bill..how about reading it bro?

I'm from canada, I know exactly what is going on in my own country..and there is a ton of people that are fucking PISSED about this. I suggest you quit talking now, because clearly from south korea..your word means little to nothing, as you have not educated yourself enough to know right from wrong..let alone how to read.