[ORUKU SAKI]

i dont trust it, just like i dont trust NO products.

whey
creatine
glutamine
multis
zma

tried and true shit.

all this other stuff? waste of cash.

whats sad is its cheaper to cop cycles of anabolics than this over the counter bullshit.

[King Kabuki]

lol@you, "I trust glutamine but not arginine"...arginine has more scientific evidence backing it for health benefits. You = genius.

I'll post in a bit, PM workout.

[hardheart]

Originally Posted by ORUKU SAKI

i dont trust it, just like i dont trust NO products.

all this other stuff? waste of cash.

whats sad is its cheaper to cop cycles of anabolics than this over the counter bullshit.

Uhh, have you tried any NO products? Cut your cycle out, and off for a couple weeks. Try workouts with just a strait whey (designer whey for instance) and a good NO product (NOXplode for example) and see if you're a reactor. I feel like I'm going to f'ing explode on NO products, but I can't take them because of a previous condition.

Dunno where you're shopping for your anabolics, but a 6 month cycle of nandro, the spikes, the oxo-6, the orals and the off cycle stuff will run me about self censored (I'm close to Mexico so this is not including the $100 in gas it would take to get there and back and the "incidental" charges that may be incurred). For that amount of money I can get a years worth of my multi, my protein, my fish oil, my fiber (oats and strait fiber), zma and test booster and still have money left over to buy my wife a nice gift for her birthday.

[King Kabuki]

Alright, turns out I left my most compelling literature on this subject at work (I read when bored out of my mind), but I recall enough to whip up something quick.

As any of you should know who researched this product properly, beta-alinine is an amino constituent of carnosine. Turns out carnosine is a very very important amino acid. For instance:

Free Radical Group, Heart Research Institute, Sydney, NSW 2050, Australia.

Glycation of low-density lipoprotein (LDL) by reactive aldehydes, such as glycolaldehyde, can result in the cellular accumulation of cholesterol in macro****es. In this study, it is shown that carnosine, or its constituent amino acids beta-alanine and l-histidine, can inhibit the modification of LDL by glycolaldehyde when present at equimolar concentrations to the modifying agent. This protective effect was accompanied by inhibition of cholesterol and cholesteryl ester accumulation in human monocyte-derived macro****es incubated with the glycated LDL. Thus, carnosine and its constituent amino acids may have therapeutic potential in preventing diabetes-induced atherosclerosis.

So, generally beta-alinine shows some healthful benefits. BUT, does it benefit performance? Well, carnosine levels are directly related to fatigue in muscles. The more carnosine is depleted, the faster you fatigue. Stop the depletion of muscle carnotine, and you significantly slow the fatiguing of muscles. Need proof? Well here ya go:

Department of Health and Exercise Science, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, U.S.A..

This study examined the effects of 28 days of beta-alanine supplementation on the physical working capacity at fatigue threshold (PWC(FT)), ventilatory threshold (VT), maximal oxygen consumption ([Formula: see text]O(2-MAX)), and time-to-exhaustion (TTE) in women. Twenty-two women (age +/- SD 27.4 +/- 6.1 yrs) participated and were randomly assigned to either the beta-alanine (CarnoSyntrade mark) or Placebo (PL) group. Before (pre) and after (post) the supplementation period, participants performed a continuous, incremental cycle ergometry test to exhaustion to determine the PWC(FT), VT, [Formula: see text]O(2-MAX), and TTE. There was a 13.9, 12.6 and 2.5% increase (p < 0.05) in VT, PWC(FT), and TTE, respectively, for the beta-alanine group, with no changes in the PL (p > 0.05). There were no changes for [Formula: see text]O(2-MAX) (p > 0.05) in either group. Results of this study indicate that beta-alanine supplementation delays the onset of neuromuscular fatigue (PWC(FT)) and the ventilatory threshold (VT) at submaximal workloads, and increase in TTE during maximal cycle ergometry performance. However, beta-alanine supplementation did not affect maximal aerobic power ([Formula: see text]O(2-MAX)). In conclusion, beta-alanine supplementation appears to improve submaximal cycle ergometry performance and TTE in young women, perhaps as a result of an increased buffering capacity due to elevated muscle carnosine concentrations.

But wait, there's more:

School of Sports, Exercise & Health Sciences, University of Chichester, Chichester, U.K..

Muscle carnosine synthesis is limited by the availability of beta-alanine. Thirteen male subjects were supplemented with beta-alanine (CarnoSyntrade mark) for 4 wks, 8 of these for 10 wks. A biopsy of the vastus lateralis was obtained from 6 of the 8 at 0, 4 and 10 wks. Subjects undertook a cycle capacity test to determine total work done (TWD) at 110% (CCT(110%)) of their maximum power (W(max)). Twelve matched subjects received a placebo. Eleven of these completed the CCT(110%) at 0 and 4 wks, and 8, 10 wks. Muscle biopsies were obtained from 5 of the 8 and one additional subject. Muscle carnosine was significantly increased by +58.8% and +80.1% after 4 and 10 wks beta-alanine supplementation. Carnosine, initially 1.71 times higher in type IIa fibres, increased equally in both type I and IIa fibres. No increase was seen in control subjects. Taurine was unchanged by 10 wks of supplementation. 4 wks beta-alanine supplementation resulted in a significant increase in TWD (+13.0%); with a further +3.2% increase at 10 wks. TWD was unchanged at 4 and 10 wks in the control subjects. The increase in TWD with supplementation followed the increase in muscle carnosine.

But does it work when taken orally? Well here's the answer to that:

School of Sports, Exercise and Health Sciences, University College Chichester, West Sussex, Chichester, UK.

Dietary supplementation with I) 3.2 and II) 6.4 g . d(-1) beta-alanine (as multiple doses of 400 or 800 mg) or III) L-carnosine (isomolar to II) for 4 w resulted in significant increases in muscle carnosine estimated at 42.1, 64.2 and 65.8%.

But Beta-alinine need not replace creatine. The two can work together:

Dept. of Health and Exercise Science, The College of New Jersey, Ewing, NJ 08628, USA.

The effects of creatine and creatine plus beta-alanine on strength, power, body composition, and endocrine changes were examined during a 10-wk resistance training program in collegiate football players. Thirty-three male subjects were randomly assigned to either a placebo (P), creatine (C), or creatine plus beta-alanine (CA) group. During each testing session subjects were assessed for strength (maximum bench press and squat), power (Wingate anaerobic power test, 20-jump test), and body composition. Resting blood samples were analyzed for total testosterone, cortisol, growth hormone, IGF-1, and sex hormone binding globulin. Changes in lean body mass and percent body fat were greater (P < 0.05) in CA compared to C or P. Significantly greater strength improvements were seen in CA and C compared to P. Resting testosterone concentrations were elevated in C, however, no other significant endocrine changes were noted. Results of this study demonstrate the efficacy of creatine and creatine plus beta-alanine on strength performance. Creatine plus beta-alanine supplementation appeared to have the greatest effect on lean tissue accruement and body fat composition.

Now, I'll leave you guys with that for the moment until I can get to the more detailed info I have. Because there's some studies that show where beta-alinine out-performed creatine and why. The magic to BA is not mega-dosing though, as much as it is carb-loading.

Carb-loading it turns out is a magical thing. I've been saying I was going to make a thread on something pretty special recently, it's carb-loading. I'll do it sooner or later but basically it goes like this:

Take any amino that don't do shit on it's own, stick it with carbs, and magic happens. That's not to be said for all aminos, but most of them.

[UrbanSavage]

So, you're saying take the stuff with carbs, how do you take it pre workout?

Also, is it necesarry to take it every day or could you just take it pre and post workout??

[Fight_Song]

KK, I'd like to see your opinion placed in my other thread about Nutrilite and their products. But that's a side note.

I take my creatine monohydrate on and off. Sometimes I flat out forget because I'm still building my discipline and I honestly do not notice a difference when I take it versus when I do not. My performance in the gym is actually pretty good. I'm always wanting to continue sparring after the classes hours have ended and I can always take more rounds and longer rounds. I attribute this to me being 20, well-rested, and with solid nutritional base.

How do you measure yourself well enough to know if X is working since there are so many factors? I don't lift weights at this time but if I did I'd assume that would be the easiest way to measure results and progress.

My creatine is "100% pure Creapure(R) Creatine Monohydrate" by ISS. This is making me wonder if what I have on my supp shelf are quality products. My last shopping venture was during a time where I wasn't hitting Sherdog often so I forgot about the recommended brands in the stickies when I got them all and now I have some questionables in the mix.

[Fight_Song]

As for carb-loading, the one product that has given me results was switching from water during training (kickboxing, mma, bjj) to powdered gatorade.

The difference was drastic for me. While I have not been monitoring my caloric in-take of the stuff, I just drink enough until I feel hydrated whenever possible during classes. When we're putting on or taking off gear, I'll swig some sips and it has made a difference. A few guys have noticed and are lugging around jugs of the same and I think they're feeling it too.

The downside is that I may be burning the garotade instead of bodyfat and I'll look further into that when I'm thinking about cutting, but as I am not currently concerned, I can go for days.

[King Kabuki]

I'll address this tomorrow, eyelids are dropping.

[Monger]

Originally Posted by Fight_Song

the one product that has given me results was switching from water during training (kickboxing, mma, bjj) to powdered gatorade.

You should try adding 5-10 grams of Whey to the Gatorade... or throw in some BCAA's.

Originally Posted by King Kabuki

lol@you, "I trust glutamine but not arginine"...arginine has more scientific evidence backing it for health benefits

I was thinking the same thing

Thanks for the posts, KK. I do have a question for you but maybe you have intentions of addressing it in your future posts.

What makes you sure that continuous dosing isn't needed throughout the day? I noticed that one of the studies above used 8 oral doses a day.

[ORUKU SAKI]

Originally Posted by King Kabuki

lol@you, "I trust glutamine but not arginine"...arginine has more scientific evidence backing it for health benefits. You = genius.

I'll post in a bit, PM workout.

shoulda rephrased it...i use aakg which is a argininne product... random cocktails like most NO products on the market no...